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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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gnuarm:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2022, 04:41:25 pm ---There are still huge problems for BEVs to solve. Raw materials is one of them. But also cost of charging infrastructure. In the end there is really is no use to try and figure out what the definitive solution will be right now. There are too many wheels in motion. Remember: BEVs came and went before! A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.
--- End quote ---

I find your comments amusing.  We are not discussing BEV popularity, we are discussing BEV practicality and use.  Clearly BEVs are practical and are being bought literally as fast as they can be make.  That's why Tesla dropped all their lower priced versions, upping the minimum price by nearly 50%. 

BEVs are not a fad.   lol



--- Quote ---Looking at the future I see a lot of movement to make hydrogen the new oil. What is the use of converting hydrogen to electricity only to store it in a heavy battery that gets lugged along in a car? Also from a raw materials POV running a car on hydrogen makes a lot of sense. The amount of platinum needed for the fuel cell starts to approach the amounts that are presently used in catalytic converters. Bottom line: it makes no sense to discard cars on hydrogen at this moment.

--- End quote ---

How can you see movement in the future?  Petroleum is an energy source.  Hydrogen is an intermediary, like electricity, a means of transporting and using the energy from other sources.  So it can't be compared to petroleum.

Your analogy of hydrogen being an intermediary on the way to powering a BEV is complete nonsense.  Hydrogen ultimately will be produced from electricity.  So obviously it makes no sense to turn electrical power into hydrogen, which is turned back into electricity to charge BEVs or anything else.  Electricity is easy to transport and is a primary energy, readily changed into nearly any other form of energy.  Hydrogen has no role in the energy processes, unless there is an end that is satisfied more easily by hydrogen than electricity, such as various construction efforts or ocean or air transportation. 

If we ever get the will power to actually stop using gas, petroleum and coal we may find a need for such an energy supply as hydrogen.  But it will only be to fill in the cracks, where electricity is not practical.
nctnico:
Maybe you should read the news a bit more in-depth. There are hydrogen storage and production projects in various states allover the world in order to supply energy across the globe. This is one close at home for me: https://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

And you are wrong about oil being an energy source. It isn't; it is stored solar energy.

And you are also wrong about electricity being a primary energy form. It is a handy intermediary form for local use but storage and/or transport over long distances is expensive.

Nuclear energy is the closest we can get to a primary energy source on earth.
NiHaoMike:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 06, 2022, 05:22:27 pm ---That's really high on the "Hasn't got a clue" scale. Practicalities aside, people have those yards to do things in. Sit and watch the world go by, have a quiet drink or smoke at the end of a long hot day, somewhere for the pets and kids to play, somewhere to do some exercise, somewhere to eat, somewhere to have a party, a BBQ, some people deliberately plant wildlife friendly plants in the (probably forlorn) hope of preserving enough biodiversity to stop local ecosystems collapsing, or just some pretty flowers, perhaps a few fresh herbs for the kitchen. Suggesting that people would welcome an additional tiny revenue stream by replacing all that and more with a likely monoculture of fuel plants at the cost of quality of life is, well, farcical.

--- End quote ---
Using the yards for biofuel production doesn't have to interfere with the uses you listed.

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 07, 2022, 03:12:20 pm ---Hydrogen is an intermediary, like electricity, a means of transporting and using the energy from other sources.  So it can't be compared to petroleum.

Your analogy of hydrogen being an intermediary on the way to powering a BEV is complete nonsense.  Hydrogen ultimately will be produced from electricity.

--- End quote ---
There are processes that make hydrogen from sunlight without making electricity first. Not sure how they will ultimately compare to electrolysis powered by PV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#Photobiological_water_splitting
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 06, 2022, 04:41:25 pm --- A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.

--- End quote ---

There speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive. I'm a petrol head of long standing, having driven a range of cars and motorbikes, for the cars mostly "performance" cars including some serious exotica and I like driving EVs. My PHEV gets driven almost exclusively in EV mode where it only has 66kW/88bhp available to drag its 1735 kg kerb weight around, but it doesn't feel like "only" 38kW/51bhp per tonne, it feels more responsive and tractable than the 130bhp/tonne sports car it replaced and that I liked so much, and couldn't find anything comparable in performance or handling, that I've stuck to driving for the last 22 years.

Then you add not having to listen to a petrol or diesel engine drone at you all the time, or the vibrations from the same, and it's a different world. Quiet, fast, calm, what's not to like.
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 07, 2022, 05:41:35 pm ---Using the yards for biofuel production doesn't have to interfere with the uses you listed.

--- End quote ---

Have you tried playing football (any of the four kinds) in a cornfield, wheatfield, or in the middle of any other crop? Or, cricket, tennis, badminton, croquet, boule, even table tennis.
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