General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
Someone:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:19:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pm ---However, many times they seem to be sold to people who do a lot of driving on the highway, and this might be where the 60km/h claim also comes into it. These people would be better with diesel or pure EV, but Toyota doesn't like marketing either.
--- End quote ---
No. Diesel is expensive to run & repair (been there, done that) and emits a lot of pollution. An EV takes long to charge (with expensive electricity from fast chargers on top of that). I already ran the numbers and a Toyota hybrid offers the best economy for doing long highway journeys plus having very low emissions.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you have extremely strong and blinkered opinions about what works for you, but dont mention all the constraints/conditions which make that true.
Here in Australia (where diesel and petrol are almost identically taxed, no incentive either way there) a diesel car is cheaper on running costs as the maintainence has been shown to be no higher than petrol engines, either type of engine wears out well past the other drive train parts which are common to both. That's comparing identical models available in both engines, slightly higher upfront cost, lower operating costs. Which applies to hybrids, higher upfront cost for promise of lower operating costs.
One of the auto associations here puts out a broad (but somewhat shallow) analysis:
https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costs
For the typical 15,000km/year and mixed city/highway driving that normal people do, the life-cycle cost of any engine choice petrol/diesel/hybrid ends up lost in the noise. People need to be heavily biased toward/away from long distance highway driving, or much higher/lower km use for any difference to appear.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pm ---(as much as I think hybrids are becoming obsoleted by pure electric vehicles for most users.)
--- End quote ---
Hybrids are not being obsoleted by BEVs. They are different technologies for different purposes. A hybrid provides a similar experience to a pure ICE vehicle, while offering higher gas mileage. A BEV provides a total break from gasoline and the resulting potential for elimination of pollution.
An ICE is like wearing a bullseye in a shit slinging contest. A hybrid is like being in the same contest, but wearing a poncho. A BEV is like sitting in the stands watching the bloody mess.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Someone on July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:19:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pm ---However, many times they seem to be sold to people who do a lot of driving on the highway, and this might be where the 60km/h claim also comes into it. These people would be better with diesel or pure EV, but Toyota doesn't like marketing either.
--- End quote ---
No. Diesel is expensive to run & repair (been there, done that) and emits a lot of pollution. An EV takes long to charge (with expensive electricity from fast chargers on top of that). I already ran the numbers and a Toyota hybrid offers the best economy for doing long highway journeys plus having very low emissions.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you have extremely strong and blinkered opinions about what works for you, but dont mention all the constraints/conditions which make that true.
Here in Australia (where diesel and petrol are almost identically taxed, no incentive either way there) a diesel car is cheaper on running costs as the maintainence has been shown to be no higher than petrol engines, either type of engine wears out well past the other drive train parts which are common to both. That's comparing identical models available in both engines, slightly higher upfront cost, lower operating costs. Which applies to hybrids, higher upfront cost for promise of lower operating costs.
One of the auto associations here puts out a broad (but somewhat shallow) analysis:
https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costs
For the typical 15,000km/year and mixed city/highway driving that normal people do, the life-cycle cost of any engine choice petrol/diesel/hybrid ends up lost in the noise. People need to be heavily biased toward/away from long distance highway driving, or much higher/lower km use for any difference to appear.
--- End quote ---
Where these 'running costs analysis' go wrong is by looking at the first few years only. Spending over 500 euro per month on a car? You've got to be friggin' kidding me. If you are going to look at craddle to the grave, you'll see an entirely different picture. It takes a very careful selection to find that car that has really low costs. The first step is to buy a used one which is 6 to 8 years old with around 125k km 'on the clock'; that way most of the devaluation has been eaten by the previous owner(s). The second step is to figure out whether the typical problems are simple (and thus cheap) to fix. Ofcourse it helps that I'm in a country where you can buy cars that are produced in Germany and are of decent quality to begin with.
And diesel is just dead. Just because of the pollution associated with diesel it is not a good choice. In addition to that diesel engines have become extremely fragile and expensive to repair/maintain. Look at prices for replacing the particle filter for example and problems due to internal pollution of a diesel engine. My previous car was a turbo diesel from 1999 with exhaust recirculation (EGR). The latter caused a buildup of 1cm of oil and sooth inside the air intake manifold. It was difficult to get that cleaned out. Fortunately it was possible to close the EGR to stop sooth getting into the intake but you can't do that on modern diesels. At the end the fuel injection pump (Denso, not some kind of crappy brand) started to have issues. Currently I'm driving a car on gasoline which has far exceeded the mileage of my previous 3 diesel cars and is still going strong while being very cheap to run (around 21 eurocents per km). Again: careful selection. When looking for my current car I started with looking at diesels but quickly found out that these are prone to very expensive repairs and most cars for sale needed such expensive repairs.
Currently I'm looking into a new (used ofcourse) car and I keep getting back to the hybrid Toyotas for the lowest cost per km. Downsized engines do offer a much better fuel economy compared to my current car but these are also prone to expensive failures or are just expensive to maintain (like 1200 euro for changing a timing belt which is buried deep inside the engine and needing special oil). Many cars just aren't designed to last more than 5 years and/or being maintenance friendly nowadays.
Someone:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 27, 2022, 08:04:38 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 26, 2022, 07:19:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:17 pm ---However, many times they seem to be sold to people who do a lot of driving on the highway, and this might be where the 60km/h claim also comes into it. These people would be better with diesel or pure EV, but Toyota doesn't like marketing either.
--- End quote ---
No. Diesel is expensive to run & repair (been there, done that) and emits a lot of pollution. An EV takes long to charge (with expensive electricity from fast chargers on top of that). I already ran the numbers and a Toyota hybrid offers the best economy for doing long highway journeys plus having very low emissions.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you have extremely strong and blinkered opinions about what works for you, but dont mention all the constraints/conditions which make that true.
Here in Australia (where diesel and petrol are almost identically taxed, no incentive either way there) a diesel car is cheaper on running costs as the maintainence has been shown to be no higher than petrol engines, either type of engine wears out well past the other drive train parts which are common to both. That's comparing identical models available in both engines, slightly higher upfront cost, lower operating costs. Which applies to hybrids, higher upfront cost for promise of lower operating costs.
One of the auto associations here puts out a broad (but somewhat shallow) analysis:
https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costs
For the typical 15,000km/year and mixed city/highway driving that normal people do, the life-cycle cost of any engine choice petrol/diesel/hybrid ends up lost in the noise. People need to be heavily biased toward/away from long distance highway driving, or much higher/lower km use for any difference to appear.
--- End quote ---
Where these 'running costs analysis' go wrong is by looking at the first few years only. Spending over 500 euro per month on a car? You've got to be friggin' kidding me. If you are going to look at craddle to the grave, you'll see an entirely different picture. It takes a very careful selection to find that car that has really low costs. The first step is to buy a used one which is 6 to 8 years old with around 125k km 'on the clock'; that way most of the devaluation has been eaten by the previous owner(s). The second step is to figure out whether the typical problems are simple (and thus cheap) to fix. Ofcourse it helps that I'm in a country where you can buy cars that are produced in Germany and are of decent quality to begin with.
And diesel is just dead. Just because of the pollution associated with diesel it is not a good choice. In addition to that diesel engines have become extremely fragile and expensive to repair/maintain. Look at prices for replacing the particle filter for example and problems due to internal pollution of a diesel engine. My previous car was a turbo diesel from 1999 with exhaust recirculation (EGR). The latter caused a buildup of 1cm of oil and sooth inside the air intake manifold. It was difficult to get that cleaned out. Fortunately it was possible to close the EGR to stop sooth getting into the intake but you can't do that on modern diesels. At the end the fuel injection pump (Denso, not some kind of crappy brand) started to have issues. Currently I'm driving a car on gasoline which has far exceeded the mileage of my previous 3 diesel cars and is still going strong while being very cheap to run (around 21 eurocents per km). Again: careful selection. When looking for my current car I started with looking at diesels but quickly found out that these are prone to very expensive repairs and most cars for sale needed such expensive repairs.
Currently I'm looking into a new (used ofcourse) car and I keep getting back to the hybrid Toyotas for the lowest cost per km. Downsized engines do offer a much better fuel economy compared to my current car but these are also prone to expensive failures or are just expensive to maintain (like 1200 euro for changing a timing belt which is buried deep inside the engine and needing special oil). Many cars just aren't designed to last more than 5 years and/or being maintenance friendly nowadays.
--- End quote ---
So now you start to build out the picture of your throwaway unsubstantiated comment.... But sticking to claiming you know better than everyone else and your experience is 100% applicable to everyone else, which is isn't. Diesels are not more expensive to maintain, you found some outliers with your limited/narrow experience, that's not a universal truth and you're unable to fid any industry data to back it up. Oh and complaining about pollution while admitting you blanked an EGR? lol.
I have friends and family in the motor trade, and know what their highly experienced opinions are (that need to be correct for them to make money), as with the auto clubs not much difference in petrol/diesel/hybrid as the free/open market is pricing them all pretty fairly. The second hand market quickly picks up on any unreliable models/engines and they're priced accordingly (making motor swaps a profitable business). Modern low emission petrols are now using most of the tricks that diesels were 10-20 years ago, and surprise surprise the whole world of emissions control systems failing and particulate buildup (rather than being washed out into the air) are affecting modern petrol engines roughly equally.
Differences only appear for the outliers like: taxis spending all day in stop-start traffic (hybrids win easy), long distance travellers/commuters putting in 25,000km a year on the highway (diesel), or "grandma" going to church once a week for 1000km/year (petrol). Regular people are what the market is pricing cars for, and the open market works at levelling the lifecycle cost.
edy:
Thanks for all the discussion, it is helpful, I've learned a lot. I also found this video that is great at explaining some of the nuances between the different types of electrification of vehicles:
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