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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

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Miyuki:
In Prague, there is for example Anytime Carsharing
They use Toyota hybrids
Just have an app and use it as a key to the car. Can use any of their vehicles and can leave them anywhere in the city.
And pay either by minutes used or for longer rentals for days + distance (both have fuel included)
It is pretty convenient if the service does not have any issues or not have a problem with a car. As customer service has not the best review.
If you do not use the car daily it is cheaper than owning a comparable car. And for most inner city commute is better to use public transport (not all places are reachable by public transport). So technically there is little reason to own a car except people want to own one as it is a status symbol.
But this can work only in densely populated areas and not in outer suburbs and villages.
And for daily drivers, this might be a good solution in some cases.

tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm ---My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

--- End quote ---

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.)  or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)

I do think a well built electric SDC could achieve 500k miles with ordinary maintenance.  The battery pack or chassis perforation from rust would be the most common reasons to scrap a vehicle IMO.  Ultimately it would cost less to sporadically hire one than to leave a car on your driveway.

PS I am pro car ownership for now as obviously SDCs are well off being practical, but I do think there will be a massive transition towards them once they become practical alternatives to owning a car.

Someone:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm ---My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.
--- End quote ---

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live

--- End quote ---
Its like you two have been here before.....

--- Quote from: nctnico on March 27, 2022, 03:37:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on March 27, 2022, 09:27:53 am ---Not to mention, EVs don't need to charge at 6pm, like when you might put the oven on, which creates a lot of demand. EVs can charge at 2am, parked on your driveway,
--- End quote ---
Can you please get me a driveway? And while you are at it, thousands of people that live in my neighbourhood would like one as well. And make it two driveways for the households with two cars.
--- End quote ---
nctnico is on the side of parking should be provided for free/subsidised by others.


--- Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm ---My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

--- End quote ---

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.)  or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)

I do think a well built electric SDC could achieve 500k miles with ordinary maintenance.  The battery pack or chassis perforation from rust would be the most common reasons to scrap a vehicle IMO.  Ultimately it would cost less to sporadically hire one than to leave a car on your driveway.
--- End quote ---
I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.

In Australia the fixed costs of ownership dominate over the variable costs for most people, which is a perverse incentive to drive more if you do own a car (and little political will to change that). At 12,000km/year (average use) in an older car the rough numbers averaged over the fleet of vehicles in my garage
Fuel: $1000
Maintenance: $1200
Registration: $950
Comprehensive Insurance: $400
Garage parking: $3200
Depreciation: $1000
Breakdowns: $200

66c AUD/km

the offical government allowance for car use (tax rebate) is 78c/km
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Income-and-deductions-for-business/Deductions/Deductions-for-motor-vehicle-expenses/Cents-per-kilometre-method/
they know what it actually costs ;)

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm ---I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.

--- End quote ---

Any examples?  My (extensive) experience tells me that vehicles don't get that far without both a significant repair budget and a willingness to allow the overall condition of the vehicle to deteriorate a bit.  I've seen some Prius taxis still running around at 300K miles, but there is some survivor bias built into those types of anecdotes.


--- Quote ---they know what it actually costs ;)

--- End quote ---

No, they really don't.   The tax agency numbers are typically based on reasonable costs for an average newer vehicle.  Your numbers and their numbers may be wildly off the mark for others.  In your example, registration and parking are over half your total cost.  For me and many others, those are nearly nil.

But my real puzzlement is how many people use their cars in a way that they can always use a service instead?  And it has to be 'always', since the whole rationale requires divesting yourself of the personally owned car to save the fixed expenses.  Suppose we want to drive to the beach and have a picnic, then drive up the coast and have dinner and then stay someplace?  Where do we keep the chairs, beach umbrella and picnic basket while we're having dinner?  Do we lug them all into a hotel room instead of leaving them in the trunk of our personal car?

Someone:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm ---they know what it actually costs ;)

--- End quote ---
No, they really don't.   The tax agency numbers are typically based on reasonable costs for an average newer vehicle.  Your numbers and their numbers may be wildly off the mark for others.  In your example, registration and parking are over half your total cost.  For me and many others, those are nearly nil.
--- End quote ---
You in some other country, sure. That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).

That's what registration and parking actually cost, here in this location. They might be different for you, great, add in your averaged figures and provide some other data points. Some countries bias the cost more towards fixed costs and others more toward variable costs. But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.

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