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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

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Someone:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm ---I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.
--- End quote ---
Any examples?  My (extensive) experience tells me that vehicles don't get that far without both a significant repair budget and a willingness to allow the overall condition of the vehicle to deteriorate a bit.  I've seen some Prius taxis still running around at 300K miles, but there is some survivor bias built into those types of anecdotes.

--- End quote ---
I'm not doxxing myself by providing the models of the vehicles I have. US cars and salty snow regions are famous for being short lived, out in arid Australia away from the salt breezes on the coast cars can and do last.  In the local area we have many 25-40 year old cars in use as daily drivers, which is completely unimaginable for those from salt land/belt. The average age of a car in Australia is over 10 years old:
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/motor-vehicle-census-australia/latest-release

Taxi and fleet operators have been able to weed out the long running models pretty well. Its somewhat dependent on the owner/driver and how they treat their car, servicing and driving styles contribute which is where fleet/taxi operators tend to have better servicing records/efforts.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 am --- That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).

--- End quote ---

It isn't necessary to change countries to prove this wrong, at least in the way that I meant that it was wrong--there is no single number that works for everyone.  All you would have to do is drive twice as far every year and your numbers would change drastically.  So their numbers may work for many 'average' cases, but they can't work for everyone.  Here the rate is $0.625/mile and I can easily beat that and my neighbor with his new SUV can't even dream of a number that low.  As they say, YMMV.  Perhaps an Uber driver with a newer economy sedan might get close to that over a 5-year period.  But the tails are fat.


--- Quote ---But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.

--- End quote ---

Unless you are building a new civilization on Mars or are just waxing eloquent on philosophical economics, you need to talk about incremental costs when it comes to changing the status quo.  I have a garage, a driveway and available street parking.  My current and future incremental costs for these are zero regardless of what the inputs were long ago or what expenses might be attributed to them in the future as they aren't going away even if my cars do.  Many people will be in this same boat.

I don't think specifying a vehicle would be doxxing your self, but I can give you simple numbers for our very-low-usage vehicle that we only use for long trips.  2010 Honda Accord, we've had it 12 years and driven it 42k miles.  It cost $22500 and is now worth maybe $10K.  All maintenance including a set of tires has been less than $2400.  Insurance is ~ $500/year and registration is <$200.  It gets 30MPG, so at $4/gallon (historical average) that is

Depreciation    $1000
Insurance           500
Maintenance       200
Registration        200
Fuel                 ~470

Total                 2370

2370/3500 = ~$0.68/mile.

And that is for a nice, large car that I can sleep in if I have to, stores all of our luggage and beach stuff when we travel and is available at all times--even peak service times--just for me.  Even better, the incremental cost of additional mileage is much lower than that 0.68 number so I have no issues going on a long trip if I want to.  I'll be heading to Arizona on a 1000-mile roundtrip drive (to pick up my new Tek 576 from Goodwill) and the incremental cost of those miles will be less than $0.25/mile, just fuel, tire wear and a bit of oil life.

 

Someone:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 am ---But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.
--- End quote ---
Unless you are building a new civilization on Mars or are just waxing eloquent on philosophical economics, you need to talk about incremental costs when it comes to changing the status quo.  I have a garage, a driveway and available street parking.  My current and future incremental costs for these are zero regardless of what the inputs were long ago or what expenses might be attributed to them in the future as they aren't going away even if my cars do.  Many people will be in this same boat.
--- End quote ---
That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space. Incremental cost of nothing is plainly wrong when land and buildings have a cost, that should be amortised/apportioned over their use.

If the council stopped all free on street parking and charged residents permits (as other areas do) I would pay lower rates or the services would increase, nothing needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Again, opportunity cost, vs your misleading assertion of no incremental value. Free parking is a huge subsidy to those who use it when land prices are around $1000/m2. An on road car parking space needs 14m2 in the local regulations, so for an 8% return (with zero other costs) around $840 per year for the crappiest form of parking. I'd happily buy the street parking space in front of my house and extend the verge.

Common situation in Australia where there is free on street parking... people fill their garages as storage and park in the driveway or on the street. People dont leave their buildings empty and derive no value from it.


--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 am ---That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).
--- End quote ---
It isn't necessary to change countries to prove this wrong, at least in the way that I meant that it was wrong--there is no single number that works for everyone.  All you would have to do is drive twice as far every year and your numbers would change drastically.  So their numbers may work for many 'average' cases, but they can't work for everyone.
--- End quote ---
I explicitly stated average, and it happens that the vehicles here are almost on that average. Of course other country, other situation, other economics radically change the numbers.


--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm ---they know what it actually costs ;)

--- End quote ---
No, they really don't.
--- End quote ---
The Australian tax department do know what it costs to run a car in Australia, its very very close to the fairly average use case of the vehicles I operate.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 02:41:05 am ---]That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space.

--- End quote ---

So suppose I ditched all my cars and signed up for your perpetual SDC service.  What productive and paying uses would I have for my garage and driveway?  I don't live in SF or Manhattan where you can sell parking spaces for $100K+.  And being able to acquire and store a larger oscilloscope collection does not count as a paying use!

You can always use a 'choice' of accounting methods to prove a point, just like companies magically use 'goodwill' to even out their balance sheets when they are actually bankrupt from a future cash flow vantage point.  We're talking about the practicality and economics of an imagined 500k maintenance free driverless shared car replacing my actual cars and everyone else's.  If you are going to pencil it out to see if people will bite and if the numbers work, you have to use methods that describe what actually can and will happen in particular instances.  Saying I'll be ahead by thousands every year because I'm not using my driveway is the same accounting that says a bankrupt company is going to be able to pay their bonds with shareholder equity and goodwill. 

Rideshares and taxis work well in lieu of personally owned vehicles in congested urban areas if other public transportation doesn't work well.  Suburban USA, not so much.  Rural USA, no way in hell.  I'm guessing it isn't so much different in other countries that I've observed, but I'd be happy to defer to those that live there.   

Someone:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 02:41:05 am ---]That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space.

--- End quote ---
Saying I'll be ahead by thousands every year because I'm not using my driveway is the same accounting that says a bankrupt company is going to be able to pay their bonds with shareholder equity and goodwill.
--- End quote ---
You have paid for that garage space, but you refuse to apportion any cost to the car parking when you talk about the cost of owning/operating a car. Perhaps the purchase of the car should be "zero" as you already have it and aren't planning on selling it? Equally stupid.

For people who have access to car sharing, they dont buy a garage in the first place. Hence the significant cost savings that you and others are trying to pretend aren't there. You're putting car parking "off the books" which is plainly incorrect as there is a cost.

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