General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
tom66:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 05:18:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 13, 2022, 04:33:40 pm ---Who the hell is driving around in a 5-ton vehicle today?!
--- End quote ---
Well it isn't 5 tons, but a Tesla Model X has a GVWR of over 6700lbs and qualifies for a significant tax credit (Section 179) for being over 3 tons.
--- End quote ---
It's a ridiculous tax rule where trucks are exempt, and SUVs get classified as light trucks. It needs to go. I mean fair enough for a pickup if it's a legitimate business expense as in the bed is full of gravel or tools all the time, but an SUV...
Someone:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 02:31:39 pm ---Again, in an urban environment that can be managed, but it is much harder in a suburban scene and impossible in rural areas. Your SDCs will be driving 40-100% more miles than private cars for equivalent use in my area.
--- End quote ---
You can keep picking out unusual/corner cases all you like, I put forward some very average figures and explicitly stated as such.
For example:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 am ---I can give you simple numbers for our very-low-usage vehicle that we only use for long trips. 2010 Honda Accord, we've had it 12 years and driven it 42k miles. All maintenance including a set of tires has been less than $2400.
....
Maintenance 200
--- End quote ---
That is an unbelievably low maintenance cost including tires. I can't even get an oil change for $200 (the oil wholesale is $100 already). Brand new cars with their "free" servicing don't even get that cheap on average:
--- Quote from: Someone on July 27, 2022, 01:02:19 am ---One of the auto associations here puts out a broad (but somewhat shallow) analysis:
https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/buying-a-car/running-costs
--- End quote ---
All this kicked off with what I was (again explicitly) responding to:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm ---My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.
--- End quote ---
Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?
- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.) or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)
--- End quote ---
But do keep trying to argue my referenced figures are "wrong", under your entirely different set of assumptions and accounting (that you haven't been making explicit).
Someone:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 13, 2022, 05:35:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 13, 2022, 05:18:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 13, 2022, 04:33:40 pm ---Who the hell is driving around in a 5-ton vehicle today?!
--- End quote ---
Well it isn't 5 tons, but a Tesla Model X has a GVWR of over 6700lbs and qualifies for a significant tax credit (Section 179) for being over 3 tons.
--- End quote ---
It's a ridiculous tax rule where trucks are exempt, and SUVs get classified as light trucks. It needs to go. I mean fair enough for a pickup if it's a legitimate business expense as in the bed is full of gravel or tools all the time, but an SUV...
--- End quote ---
The US consumer vehicle market is completely distorted, and the majority of their consumers are happy with the cheap inefficient trucks that it produces. Leave them to it. But do fight if they try and push that in your country (Australia is now wash with US style "trucks" after the local manufactures died off).
nctnico:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm ---My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.
--- End quote ---
Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?
- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.) or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)
--- End quote ---
Yes. The majority of the costs (over 60%) are fuel costs anyway. After that tyres and suspension parts (I don't skimp on safety so I change the tyres long before they are at the wear indicators and I have the shock absorbers changed every 150k km). My previous car was even cheaper per km (around 0.18 euro per km) but that ran on diesel and the fuel prices where lower when I drove around in it. But again: I very very carefully select the car I buy -used- for low TCO.
An expensive repair -say 800 euro- gets lost in the noise completely due to the large number of kilometers I drive with a car before buying another one. Basically I drive a car until it becomes uneconomical to have it repaired. For my next car I want it to have a 30% lower fuel consumption so I can keep hitting the 0.20 euro per km mark. Maybe even go below it depending on how many km I manage get out of the car.
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 13, 2022, 10:52:19 pm ---I can't even get an oil change for $200 (the oil wholesale is $100 already)...
...But do keep trying to argue my referenced figures are "wrong", under your entirely different set of assumptions and accounting (that you haven't been making explicit).
--- End quote ---
Perhaps $AUD are weaker than I thought? A 5-quart bottle of very high grade synthetic oil runs me $40, but I could cut that in half if I went with a cheaper brand. A set of good tires was $550. I suppose I could spend more on maintenance, but with very low usage this car has been pretty repair free. Yes, I do most of the work on my own, but if you want to count that as a 'cost', I want to add back in the time that I wait for your SDC service every time I summon it.
I never said that your or your tax agency figures are 'wrong', just that individual costs can vary significantly. There may be some disagreement as to what 'costs' are, but my accounting is simple--if it goes on my credit card it is a cost. Otherwise, not so much. However, should you disagree, you can triple my costs if you like and you still won't be over the actual cost of any existing ride share service for the same trips and uses. So for it to work for me, your plan first requires a drastic cost reduction over a current money-losing model and then requires me to accept a service that has some shortcomings over having my own car.
As for corner cases--what? All of rural and suburban USA is a 'corner case'? There's no way to avoid deadheading if you are using a reasonable number (not too many) of vehicles. I have and use the Uber app and I even get $15/mo in free Uber cash every month from a CC promotion, so it isn't as if I haven't tried it or am unaware of the costs and utility. Rideshare has its uses, such as when parking is problematic at the destination, or where I need to leave or pick up a car for service. But that doesn't help me recover any costs by losing any cars. There are probably at least a hundred million Americans who are situated similarly or worse when it comes to using their own cars vs rideshare. I don't know their per-mile costs, but I suspect most of them drive more miles than I do.
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