General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 am ---Which "large percentage" of the population would find BEVs impractical?
I often hear how the UK has far too many cars parking on the street making it impossible to charge at home. That's not actually the case, since level 2 charging can be placed anywhere, literally. The cord can be with the car, leaving only a connector on the EVSE, so little opportunity for stealing the copper (much harder to do when in use).
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People that live in apartments or other rented accommodations with assigned parking and landlords that will not permit the installation of chargers (often for totally legitimate reasons, b/t/w). People who have a budget of under $10-15K for a used car and need a reasonable daily range. Those two alone account for a pretty large swath of the US population.
Even L2 charging isn't free or anywhere near free once you price in the wiring to it. Streetside charging, even if only outlets, is a pretty big capital outlay. I'm not sure there is enough copper available.
--- Quote ---If you want to fly around the holidays, you need to book well in advance, otherwise you don't go. That doesn't mean people buy their own airplanes.
--- End quote ---
They certainly do if they can afford them. I would buy a Honda Jet if I could. Unfortunately anything I could afford would only be recreational and not practical transportation.
Bassman59:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:09:02 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 03:50:38 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pm ---People like owning stuff, and that will always trickle up the ladder depending on your your wealth level and desire.
For majority of people the car ranks right up there with owning a house.
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roughly 1/3 of Australians own a house, 1/3 loan leveraged, 1/3 renting. Similarly 1/4 of people with a car have it on finance. A house generally appreciates (over recent history, bubble etc) while a car is almost always a depreciating asset which is where it falls apart on an ownership model.
Its a social pressure to own those things, and people buy in despite the economics saying otherwise. Then convince themselves and others that it was the "right" thing to do with the sorts of misleading arguments flying about in here. Having been in all the different combinations of above (rent/leverage/own house, rent/own/share car) there can be situations where one is more profitable than the other. Trying to make generalizations across "majority" when that is mostly based on feelings/desires rather than financial basics, you can say it all you like. I'll point out how its to (the majorities) financial detriment.
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You don't hear horror stories about people paying cash for a car (lemons aside, warranties generally cover that). But there are countless horror stories of people coming-a-gutsa on car loans. They literally make drama stories on the current affairs shows with monotinous regularly.
If you have the available cash, buy the car, it's pretty uch ano-brainer unless you have other cricumstances like you move or change jobs often or don't have the lifestyle etc. Yes it depreciates with time, but it's also a cash insurance buffer that should SHTF, you can sell it and get instant cash. But if SHTF financially and you are locked into a car repayment loan, good luck.
Only with hindsight can you look back and calculate the overall financial analysis. And sometimes, that's not the point.
I would strongly advise people, as first order advice, don't get a car loan. You are way better off buying a junker outright than going into a replayment plan for a new (or heaven forbid, used) car.
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Obviously things have changed recently, but for many years, people with "good credit" could get new car loans with interest rates below 1% and sometimes even literally 0%. Now of course the car manufacturers offering these loans did so because they knew it would sell cars, and the low/no interest rate would make the upsell into a higher trim level or into a higher-end model easier. Financially savvy buyers could take advantage of these rates and get the car they needed and preserve cash flow. Let's see, would I rather just hand over $20,000 in one lump sum or pay $417/month for four years? (I assume a decent down payment.)
Also re: new vs used, that 0.99% rate is for new cars bought by people with "excellent" credit. If your situation is such that you will be a used car and the loan rate is 8%, then sure, paying cash, even if the car in question has to be a junker to be affordable, is the better option. Where it gets weird is when the price for used cars coming off lease, so three years old, cost slightly under the cost of new, but because the car is used, loan rates will be higher, so in terms of monthly payments and total cost of the loan, the new car might very well end up being less expensive.
And the argument against the junker is that you're buying someone else's problems. You can budget for a car payment, but can you budget a surprise $2,000 bill (or whatever) for a new transmission? Do you value reliability? Do you have the skills, the tools, the time and the space to do the repairs yourself? Can you be without the car for a day, or for the week it takes for you to repair it?
Everyone has different answers to those questions, because everyone's situation is different.
pcprogrammer:
Lived in Delft for 10 years and left about 26 years ago to move to a new build location in Hoogvliet and after living there for 4 years moved on to Nunhem a small town in Limburg and now in rural France for already 10 years I have some insights in car ownership and parking over time.
In old town Delft most of the people living there had their own car and parking has always been hell. When my wife moved in we had two cars and her working as a nurse with different shifts had to park quite a bit away when she had night shifts. Charging a BEV on the streets there would require street poles everywhere since you can't have your own on your own parking space. There is no own parking space unless you are one of the very few with a garage. The house next door had one, but that was an exception.
In the new build location of Hoogvliet we had a house without opposite front neighbors and two sides of parking. In year one we had all the space to park no problems. By the time we left four years later, parking had become a problem :palm: So no guaranteed parking in front of your house to charge your car.
In the small town of Nunhem we had our own driveway and a garage and there it would not be a problem to charge our car. Here in rural France we also have our own driveway and garage. A BEV would do fine for the shopping we do, but would be a drag for the two trips a year we take to the Netherlands. Sure we could rent a car for that, but we decided to upgrade our 17 year old car to a 1 year old ICE and hope to use that for the next 15 years or so. A hybrid could have done here if the price was within our budget, but they are still to high for us.
In all the situations above car sharing would not have been an option with the work we did and even here in rural France I don't see it work that well. And with a lot of people being pigs I fear the state of a shared car every time I would like to use it. No thanks, I will keep my own car, even if it depreciates in value.
chickenHeadKnob:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:31:51 am ---
And then you are almost certainly financially better off just buying a junker outright and having it to yourself.
There are hug reason why the majority own their own car (finance or otherwise). The communal rental thing will always be a niche.
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With respect to buying junkers, the WEF almost certainly can make this same calculation. Which is why I anticipate Anglo-sphere countries will introduce society wide coercive measures to prevent personal ownership of old cars. They will become inviable through some permutation of emission, road safety, licensing, insurance, carbon fuel rationing ect. laws. The same with cash transactions. Banksters are hot and horny for the elimination of the cash economy. You know, to fight crime and stuff.
For most of my life I bought pick-up trucks, both used and new, and then hung on to them till they were 18-20+ years old. Easy to self-fix and maintain, used for some construction work and commuting. Made good deals along the way with very low amortized cost of ownership. Within the next 2-3 years I am looking to buy what will likely be my last vehicle and don't know what to do. Shit has gotten confusing real fast. I am still inclined to stick with a gasoline powered vehicle, but as others have already mentioned the prices in the used car market are insane.
Someone:
--- Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 am ---And the argument against the junker is that you're buying someone else's problems. You can budget for a car payment, but can you budget a surprise $2,000 bill (or whatever) for a new transmission? Do you value reliability? Do you have the skills, the tools, the time and the space to do the repairs yourself? Can you be without the car for a day, or for the week it takes for you to repair it?
Everyone has different answers to those questions, because everyone's situation is different.
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This is the point that is against the "convenience", there are measurable downsides of private ownership compared to rentals, nothing extra to pay or time to spend for a maintained, warranted, and breakdown covered vehicle, its all included in a rental. The time spent getting to/from a rental or share car for me has been less than the time spent administering an owned car, which with wider adoption would only improve.
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