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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

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tom66:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:04:34 am ---Grid storage is not likely to be lithium based going forward.  Autos and other "mobile" devices have a specific need for high energy density, both by volume and by weight.  Grid storage does not.  Other battery technologies will dominate that market. 

Currently vanadium flow batteries are looking very good for stationary storage.  I just read something about a very large installation that is going in.  I believe it was in an article about how the technology was developed with US funds, and somehow ended up in a Chinese factory.  It seems that is being corrected with the license being pulled.

--- End quote ---

I think grid storage even being a battery is unlikely.

Convert it into hydrogen and store that at STP in natural gas caverns, then pull that hydrogen through a few "fool-cells" to make electricity.

Or, convert that hydrogen into natural gas using Fischer-Tropsch, or ammonia using the Haber process, and then combust as necessary (carbon-neutral fuel, assuming the natural gas leakage is kept low enough.)

Most countries that use natural gas have huge salt or geological caverns underground suitable for storing whole seasons worth of gas and it's typically at a low pressure.  Reuse what we have.

Small battery-packs will handle the hour-by-hour load management but I doubt they will ever do much more than that - e.g. for the UK you'd need a 960GWh battery for 1 day's electricity (assuming demand stays as is) - that's roughly enough to build 13 million Tesla Model 3's - and you'll need more than one day worth of storage if the grid is fully renewable.

Edit: typo

EEVblog:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 07:21:08 am ---This is the point that is against the "convenience", there are measurable downsides of private ownership compared to rentals, nothing extra to pay or time to spend for a maintained, warranted, and breakdown covered vehicle, its all included in a rental. The time spent getting to/from a rental or share car for me has been less than the time spent administering an owned car, which with wider adoption would only improve.
--- End quote ---

Do you have a family? Doesn't work so well then.

Someone:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 08:46:46 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 07:21:08 am ---This is the point that is against the "convenience", there are measurable downsides of private ownership compared to rentals, nothing extra to pay or time to spend for a maintained, warranted, and breakdown covered vehicle, its all included in a rental. The time spent getting to/from a rental or share car for me has been less than the time spent administering an owned car, which with wider adoption would only improve.
--- End quote ---
Do you have a family? Doesn't work so well then.
--- End quote ---
No-one is saying they will replace all cars. Sure, have a family hatch/wagon/van/mover (sized to number of young) for the daily routine, and then share/rent/borrow a car for the non daily routine tasks.

Owning a car has "hidden" costs which people pretend dont exist, which makes alternatives appear less desirable when they aren't.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2022, 11:50:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 17, 2022, 09:56:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 17, 2022, 01:21:04 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 17, 2022, 09:14:31 am ---Not to mention a proper car sharing infrastructure would eliminate a lot of that anxiety.

VW had/have a scheme where if you want to go on a really long trip and you have an EV you can rent a dirty diesel from them - and I think 1 week's rental per year of lease is free.

But I guess it's the same reason people drive big SUVs.  They want a car for that 1% of the time when they go to the airport, or on a long road trip etc,  but most of the time they use it to commute to work and back or get shopping etc with one or two passengers.   And it's really a waste of resources because it's *hard* to share a car.  Improving that is really important.
--- End quote ---
It sure is hard to share a car.

Part of the reason that it's hard to share a long-range car that people might want for 2 weeks out of 52 is that a lot of people will want that car around the same time (summer holidays and Christmas trips). I don't think there's any amount of demand management that's going to make people happy to make their winter family visit on the 4th week in January instead of over Christmas and New Years.

--- End quote ---
Which is why very few people are suggesting that every household will use exclusively share cars. Share cars, easily and economically replace cars that are used infrequently. There is already a demand management in place which works for: airlines, hire cars, rental accommodation, the price goes up during cultural "peak" demand. Even at those higher rates, it still makes economic sense to hire/rent. Or are you the 0.001% who own their own jet and international holiday accommodation for each season? Convenience has a very high cost when all that is being held operational for use only a tiny fraction of the time.
--- End quote ---

It's turtles all the way down.
People like owning stuff, and that will always trickle up the ladder depending on your your wealth level and desire.
For majority of people the car ranks right up there with owning a house.

--- End quote ---
There is ofcourse a number of people for whom owning a car is some kind of status symbol. But I think the group that simply needs a financially sensible car to travel to/from work every day is much larger.  In the Netherlands used cars outsell new cars roughly 4 to 1.


--- Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 am ---And the argument against the junker is that you're buying someone else's problems. You can budget for a car payment, but can you budget a surprise $2,000 bill (or whatever) for a new transmission? Do you value reliability?

--- End quote ---
I don't think you have to do repairs yourself to run a car cheaply. I never had to. If you select a car carefully so you know the model is reliable + have the actual car checked by a mechanic before buying it, you won't be in for nasty surprises. Next to lending money for a car, the worst thing to do is buy a used car simply because it looks pretty. Typically I spend between 800 to 1500 euro on a used car to get it back to the proper maintenance level (including good tyres). With >80% devaluation eaten by the previous owner, that is well worth the money.

EEVblog:

--- Quote from: Bassman59 on August 18, 2022, 05:17:47 am ---And the argument against the junker is that you're buying someone else's problems. You can budget for a car payment, but can you budget a surprise $2,000 bill (or whatever) for a new transmission? Do you value reliability? Do you have the skills, the tools, the time and the space to do the repairs yourself? Can you be without the car for a day, or for the week it takes for you to repair it?
Everyone has different answers to those questions, because everyone's situation is different.

--- End quote ---

Sure.
And "junker" doesn't have to mean a $1000 bomb. It could simply mean a decent $10,000 used car instead of a $30,000 new one. Modern cars are very reliable, and if you get one of the common Japanese ones for example (Toyota Corolla for example), they are super reliable and parts are plentiful and fairly cheap if needed.

In my wealth video I think I recommended not buying a new car, or the latest iPhone etc. Save your money and live frugally until you don't have to any more.

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