General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 04:34:29 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 am ---I often hear how the UK has far too many cars parking on the street making it impossible to charge at home. That's not actually the case, since level 2 charging can be placed anywhere, literally. The cord can be with the car, leaving only a connector on the EVSE, so little opportunity for stealing the copper (much harder to do when in use).
--- End quote ---
I know multiple people in my town who have no parking - they own cars, and they own a house or rent a flat, and have no assured place to park and with that, no place to charge a BEV except sitting at a (currently rare, mostly slow) public charger.
It is a problem, whether you want to admit it or not. One which must be solved, not handwaved away.
--- End quote ---
The problem is you can't imagine this will change. BEVs are only just now entering the rapid sales growth, a bit like the inflationary phase of the universe after the big bang. Expect a lot of things to change. The one thing that will change the most is the appearance of level 1 or 2 charging at virtually everyplace where people park cars. Level 1 charging is dirt cheap to install. It's comparable to an outlet. Level 2 charging is also not very expensive and can be installed everywhere there is a need.
No one is "handwaving" away anything. I'm just saying the present lack of overnight charging is not the huge, impenetrable roadblock that people try to make it out to be.
tom66:
Indeed. Some 50% of UK households do in fact have driveways so those are the 'easy pickings' for installing charging.
The other half will need a solution, and it's definitely harder to solve. But in the meantime, what's holding that the first half back? How can we make EVs more attractive for those guys?
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:35:41 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:30:11 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2022, 04:23:40 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 am ---Which "large percentage" of the population would find BEVs impractical?
I often hear how the UK has far too many cars parking on the street making it impossible to charge at home. That's not actually the case, since level 2 charging can be placed anywhere, literally.
--- End quote ---
It is actually the case for those that have investigated it and say it's a problem. I hear this all the time.
--- End quote ---
So anecdotal and not anything we can actually debate.
--- End quote ---
I know people who have said it, and in some cases, have seen their actual living situtations myself, and I know it's true.
I don't want to debate it, it's a literal truth that many people do not have the ability to practically charge an EV. And it's often not easy to get such infrastructure installed due to physical access, cost, council regulations etc.
--- End quote ---
You can't claim "large percentage" based on a few of your friends. That's what is meant by anecdotal.
You are talking about the situation at this moment, as if it is impossible to change. This is what I hear from lots of people in the UK. It really makes me wonder if they are the same people who made so many advances in science and stood up to the Axis in WWII.
This is such a trivial problem to overcome. Yes, it is not worth debating. If people can't figure this out, they deserve to be the last ones driving ICE when the rest of the world is clean.
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gnuarm:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 18, 2022, 04:59:57 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:14:54 am ---Which "large percentage" of the population would find BEVs impractical?
I often hear how the UK has far too many cars parking on the street making it impossible to charge at home. That's not actually the case, since level 2 charging can be placed anywhere, literally. The cord can be with the car, leaving only a connector on the EVSE, so little opportunity for stealing the copper (much harder to do when in use).
--- End quote ---
People that live in apartments or other rented accommodations with assigned parking and landlords that will not permit the installation of chargers (often for totally legitimate reasons, b/t/w). People who have a budget of under $10-15K for a used car and need a reasonable daily range. Those two alone account for a pretty large swath of the US population.
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The landlord problem is easy to solve. In the US, in particular California, where most BEVs are bought, various regions have legislation that require landlords to cooperate with the tenants to install charging.
As to the used car budget, there will be plenty of used BEVs in a few short years. In the US, the average daily use is 40 miles. There aren't any BEVs that can't manage twice that and even plug in hybrids (not really a pollution solution) can handle that. I know someone who drives a PHEV just so he can charge from a 120V outlet and round trip to work every day without the ICE ever starting.
--- Quote ---Even L2 charging isn't free or anywhere near free once you price in the wiring to it. Streetside charging, even if only outlets, is a pretty big capital outlay. I'm not sure there is enough copper available.
--- End quote ---
LOL. Ok, if you say so.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---If you want to fly around the holidays, you need to book well in advance, otherwise you don't go. That doesn't mean people buy their own airplanes.
--- End quote ---
They certainly do if they can afford them. I would buy a Honda Jet if I could. Unfortunately anything I could afford would only be recreational and not practical transportation.
--- End quote ---
Ok, you are in a different world than me.
sokoloff:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pm ---But in the meantime, what's holding that the first half back? How can we make EVs more attractive for those guys?
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For two car households, I think most could already have one pure-BEV. We've been doing that since late 2014 and only twice in that timeframe has it been even moderately difficult to work out a way for both adult drivers to get where they needed to go. (Once, I just hyper-miled/rolling-roadblocked my way to 96 miles on a charge. Just this week, my wife used a DC fast charger for the first time to get ~100 miles in a single trip where I needed to use the CR-V around the house and she had to go 100 miles away. [We have a LEAF, with perhaps only 75 miles of range now.])
The cost of acquisition is still a hurdle for some. I paid $8K for a perfectly suitable 5 year-old CR-V back in 2011. I paid $32K (before $10K in government handouts) for my LEAF in 2014. That's a good used vs a new car difference, but for a lot of people, that's the choice they're facing. I wouldn't willingly pay the current used price for a LEAF. [I'd also try to avoid paying the current used price for any car, but especially a LEAF.] I've spent a little over $4K in maintenance on the Honda and around $250 on the LEAF, with a fuel difference of about $6K, but an insurance difference against the LEAF of around $3.5K, meaning the Honda has still been slightly cheaper over the comparable period.
The ready availability (in normal times) of excellent functioning, reliable 5-year old used ICE cars at under 50% of original MSRP and the comparative dearth of 5-year old used electrics makes it hard for some to justify pulling the trigger.
If you're someone who leases a new car every 2-3 years, that's no factor. If you're someone who buys new cars every 3-5 years, that's no factor. If you're someone who wants to minimize their overall car costs, it's a pretty big factor still. To the extent that this is a reason, continued government purchase incentives is probably the quickest way to incentivize people to consider a new electric over a used ICE (as it changed my purchase behavior in 2014) AND to drive more used BEVs in the market in 2027.
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