| General > General Technical Chat |
| Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... |
| << < (52/93) > >> |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 07:28:46 am --- --- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 04:04:34 am ---Grid storage is not likely to be lithium based going forward. Autos and other "mobile" devices have a specific need for high energy density, both by volume and by weight. Grid storage does not. Other battery technologies will dominate that market. Currently vanadium flow batteries are looking very good for stationary storage. I just read something about a very large installation that is going in. I believe it was in an article about how the technology was developed with US funds, and somehow ended up in a Chinese factory. It seems that is being corrected with the license being pulled. --- End quote --- I think grid storage even being a battery is unlikely. Convert it into hydrogen and store that at STP in natural gas caverns, then pull that hydrogen through a few "fool-cells" to make electricity. --- End quote --- Here's the big reason that is not a good idea, battery storage is between 80% and 90% efficient. You can't get anywhere near that with hydrogen. If your goal is to waste energy using expensive processes, then hydrogen is ideal. --- Quote ---Or, convert that hydrogen into natural gas using Fischer-Tropsch, or ammonia using the Haber process, and then combust as necessary (carbon-neutral fuel, assuming the natural gas leakage is kept low enough.) --- End quote --- Now you are doubling down on bad ideas. You need to keep in mind the goal of using renewable energy. It is to reduce and ultimately eliminate pollution, mostly the carbon emissions of fossil fuels. The processes you list above start with fossil fuels as feedstocks. You could substitute synthetic fuel or biomass derived fuels, but the cost would be quite prohibitive. --- Quote ---Most countries that use natural gas have huge salt or geological caverns underground suitable for storing whole seasons worth of gas and it's typically at a low pressure. Reuse what we have. --- End quote --- Where do you get the natural gas that doesn't make this a huge polluter? --- Quote ---Small battery-packs will handle the hour-by-hour load management but I doubt they will ever do much more than that - e.g. for the UK you'd need a 960GWh battery for 1 day's electricity (assuming demand stays as is) - that's roughly enough to build 13 million Tesla Model 3's - and you'll need more than one day worth of storage if the grid is fully renewable. --- End quote --- It would be a very serious drought that left wind farms and solar farms with zero output. Still, they will be producing 13 million BEVs for the USA alone by 2029. I don't see why this makes it unreasonable to build vanadium flow batteries. Remember that the lithium ion battery is chosen for mobile applications because of the high specific energy (energy per weight). Stationary applications don't care about that and will be built at a far lower cost per kWh than lithium ion cells. Read up about it. If you want to invest money in battery technology, vandium flow batteries are going to be a bigger wave than lithium ion because of the huge demand from buffering intermittent energy sources. |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pm ---Indeed. Some 50% of UK households do in fact have driveways so those are the 'easy pickings' for installing charging. The other half will need a solution, and it's definitely harder to solve. But in the meantime, what's holding that the first half back? How can we make EVs more attractive for those guys? --- End quote --- By having them for sale, to start. I don't know about the UK, but it's hard to buy a BEV in the US because they've all been sold. Some models have a 1 year waiting list. Automakers are ramping up literally as fast as they can. Hmmm... I wonder if BEVs will ever catch on? |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:58:26 pm ---By having them for sale, to start. I don't know about the UK, but it's hard to buy a BEV in the US because they've all been sold. Some models have a 1 year waiting list. Automakers are ramping up literally as fast as they can. Hmmm... I wonder if BEVs will ever catch on? --- End quote --- Hah. True that... I think I remarked a few posts ago about the VW ID.4 having a 14 month lead time. Well 2 year old ID.3s are selling for the same price as new. Market is kinda screwed right now. I'm going to wait a bit for those to drop... happy *enough* with my PHEV for now. |
| 2N3055:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:58:26 pm --- --- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 03:00:23 pm ---Indeed. Some 50% of UK households do in fact have driveways so those are the 'easy pickings' for installing charging. The other half will need a solution, and it's definitely harder to solve. But in the meantime, what's holding that the first half back? How can we make EVs more attractive for those guys? --- End quote --- By having them for sale, to start. I don't know about the UK, but it's hard to buy a BEV in the US because they've all been sold. Some models have a 1 year waiting list. Automakers are ramping up literally as fast as they can. Hmmm... I wonder if BEVs will ever catch on? --- End quote --- Less than 1% of the 250 million cars, SUVs and light-duty trucks on the road in the United States are electric. Percentage of BEV in sales of new cars is irrelevant. https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-ELECTRIC/USA/mopanyqxwva/ World figures are somewhere better, somewhere worse.. It is easy to talk about infrastructure when 1% of cars on road are BEV. It is easy to say they will scale electricity production, high voltage distribution networks, millions of local transformer stations, hundreds of millions of chargers etc..etc... But making current BEV electricity infrastructure 50-100x larger than now is colossal undertaking... Making 50-100x more batteries for BEV than now??? |
| nctnico:
No problem at all... in a dream fantasy 8) The reality is that selling 50 BEVs instead of 25 is a 100% increase. And for sure there is a niche market segment waiting to be filled by BEVs. There are some rumours BEV sales are levelling off in the Netherlands because the market for BEVs starts to become saturated. We have to wait until the end of 2023 to draw some conclusions on that though. |
| Navigation |
| Message Index |
| Next page |
| Previous page |