General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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tom66:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pm ---You might want to ease up on calling things idiotic, while ignoring data you don't like...

Generation IS a problem. But not the biggest one. Grid needs to be taken to the streets. And grid is NOT specified by kWh, but by peak power... THAT is the problem.

--- End quote ---

No - sorry if I offended you, but the generation argument is parroted all the time by anti-EV zealots.  I'm not saying you are one, but I've heard it so many times, and it just doesn't make sense.  So it needs to die as an argument.

As for local grid upgrades, sure.  Loads of people charging 7kW at night would need to be accounted for, so we will probably see the upgrades being done there.  At the 11kV (local medium voltage distribution) there is almost certainly enough capacity.

It will depend especially on the distribution of cars and charging times ... For instance the average driver does like 20 miles per day so they only need 1hr of charging at 7kW for most cars.  With some delayed start, that could be charged almost any time between midnight and 6am, no capacity issue even if everyone does that (oven & electric hobs at 3-4kW at 6pm is not an issue already.)  But if people are charging up before summer holidays to go on a long road trip, and nearly every house is pulling 7kW... possible issue. Or if everyone on that street has a really long commute...e.g. a popular commuter town... then the average may not hold out so well.
 
One thing I've learned recently is there's a serious lack of monitoring at the secondary side of most of the UK's LV distribution - the DNOs (local network operators) often only know there's a capacity issue when fuses blow or transformers show excess wear upon periodic inspection.  That will probably change.  Fortunately one benefit of smart metering, I suppose, is that this can be monitored on a street-by-street level so it will be possible to figure out what needs to be done and where.
pcprogrammer:
What you are forgetting in the equation of usage is that house heating also needs to shift to electricity with heat pumps to get of the gas, oil and coal.
This means another load on the grid, and during the night it tends to be colder then during the day, so the heater might run then. You would need a hell of a good communication system to control every system to get some proper load balancing.

So to fulfill this chosen path of everything electric a lot has to be engineered and thought through.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 06:47:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pm ---You might want to ease up on calling things idiotic, while ignoring data you don't like...

Generation IS a problem. But not the biggest one. Grid needs to be taken to the streets. And grid is NOT specified by kWh, but by peak power... THAT is the problem.

--- End quote ---

No - sorry if I offended you, but the generation argument is parroted all the time by anti-EV zealots.  I'm not saying you are one, but I've heard it so many times, and it just doesn't make sense.  So it needs to die as an argument.

As for local grid upgrades, sure.  Loads of people charging 7kW at night would need to be accounted for, so we will probably see the upgrades being done there.  At the 11kV (local medium voltage distribution) there is almost certainly enough capacity.

It will depend especially on the distribution of cars and charging times ... For instance the average driver does like 20 miles per day so they only need 1hr of charging at 7kW for most cars.  With some delayed start, that could be charged almost any time between midnight and 6am, no capacity issue even if everyone does that (oven & electric hobs at 3-4kW at 6pm is not an issue already.)  But if people are charging up before summer holidays to go on a long road trip, and nearly every house is pulling 7kW... possible issue. Or if everyone on that street has a really long commute...e.g. a popular commuter town... then the average may not hold out so well.

--- End quote ---
I hope you see that there are lot of 'ifs' and 'depends' in what you write above. And that is exactly where the problem is: lots of unknowns! The most costly part of the grid is the last bit to your home (or charging point) because that is shared by the least number of people. Load balancing schemes are a crutch and basically a sign that the grid can not deal with the load.
Monkeh:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 02:55:20 pm ---I'm just saying the present lack of overnight charging is not the huge, impenetrable roadblock that people try to make it out to be.

--- End quote ---

It is for those who do not have it. The difference between 'now' and 'some indeterminate time in the future with no concrete plans' seems lost on you.


--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 03:14:57 pm ---This is such a trivial problem to overcome.

--- End quote ---

I look forward to your detailed plans to resolving this issue for the majority of the affected population base. It's clearly simple, you should have those sorted by next week.
2N3055:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 18, 2022, 06:47:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 05:30:46 pm ---You might want to ease up on calling things idiotic, while ignoring data you don't like...

Generation IS a problem. But not the biggest one. Grid needs to be taken to the streets. And grid is NOT specified by kWh, but by peak power... THAT is the problem.

--- End quote ---

No - sorry if I offended you, but the generation argument is parroted all the time by anti-EV zealots.  I'm not saying you are one, but I've heard it so many times, and it just doesn't make sense.  So it needs to die as an argument.

As for local grid upgrades, sure.  Loads of people charging 7kW at night would need to be accounted for, so we will probably see the upgrades being done there.  At the 11kV (local medium voltage distribution) there is almost certainly enough capacity.

It will depend especially on the distribution of cars and charging times ... For instance the average driver does like 20 miles per day so they only need 1hr of charging at 7kW for most cars.  With some delayed start, that could be charged almost any time between midnight and 6am, no capacity issue even if everyone does that (oven & electric hobs at 3-4kW at 6pm is not an issue already.)  But if people are charging up before summer holidays to go on a long road trip, and nearly every house is pulling 7kW... possible issue. Or if everyone on that street has a really long commute...e.g. a popular commuter town... then the average may not hold out so well.
 
One thing I've learned recently is there's a serious lack of monitoring at the secondary side of most of the UK's LV distribution - the DNOs (local network operators) often only know there's a capacity issue when fuses blow or transformers show excess wear upon periodic inspection.  That will probably change.  Fortunately one benefit of smart metering, I suppose, is that this can be monitored on a street-by-street level so it will be possible to figure out what needs to be done and where.

--- End quote ---

No offense was taken, I just wanted to make sure we don't float off in wrong direction.
And that is not argument from anti EV zealots, and for sure I'm not one. I cannot wait to have vehicle with electric motor group. But not until it is actually practical where I live. What I wrote is actual argument by some people I know in electro-distribution network here where I live. Not only it cannot die, it is primary problem for widespread adoption of BEV, next to BEV being more expensive than cheapest ICE cars.
Let me explain. First it is an old city where center was made in Austrian-Hungarian empire, centuries ago. Also, it was once part of Italy. So city and suburbs are looking like those crammed, cramped Italian cities you see in the movies...  They have huge problems keeping electrical grid running as it is.  There are no enough cables, there is no place for additional transformer stations locally (on the streets) and no bulk capacity to the city. All of that needs to be solved.

As for when people are charging, you can see the pattern by looking at parking patterns.  Pretty much, it will be happening overnight. All of them at the same time.
When they are home from the office, and all other activities. 7 kW is not enough power though, you need at least 16kW to charge it in reasonable time. Average of 50km is not important again, but a peak drive.. If I have to go Rijeka-Zagreb two days in a row (something very common here) I need to charge for 2 X 360-380 km in two days. And that has to be range, about 400km on a charge.
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