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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 11:57:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2022, 11:21:30 pm ---I've been very lucky, my neighbours are considerate, and I get to park in front of my house almost all the time, and so can cobble together charging at the kerb, running a cable under a safety yellow tread strip. But as soon as there are a few people in my street needing to do that you can bet your last dollar that the local authority will ban it on safety grounds, and probably rightly once these become a common hazard to foot traffic rather than a rare one.

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Yup. In the city where I live you get a 259 euro fine for putting a cable over the side walk (to charge your EV). Even if it is in a safety strip.

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That is so typical of politics :-DD On the one hand they push you into buying an EV, but when you do and try to charge it with a cable running from your house to the car over "public" land then you get fined for it. :palm:


--- Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 11:01:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 18, 2022, 06:16:27 pm ---I have asked about the actual numbers in another thread, but no one seems to know. Categorized per system emitting CO2 what the actual values are. The main focus at the moment is on the car and the households using fossil fuels to run. Some say this only takes up a very small share in the total CO2 emission the human race is responsible for.

So is there a chart that shows how much CO2 a human or other big animal produces by eating and pooping, how much industry produces, how much house holds produce, how much cars produce, etc.
--- End quote ---
That sort of data is readily available:
https://www.csiro.au/en/research/environmental-impacts/climate-change/climate-change-qa/sources-of-ghg-gases
reported in co2 "equivalent"
Private transport is somewhere around 5-10% of total Australian emissions by that measure. Still a bigger opportunity for change than things like LED bulb replacement (and the carbon offsets that were shuffled around on that).

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Still only a partial answer, but an interesting take from it: Generating electricity is the number one in producing CO2 emission, and what do we do, switch to EV's which use electricity. Sure there is a big movement to get electricity from "renewables", which I find a wrong term for solar and wind, but that is another discussion.

Through this thread I saw mentioned a lot that overnight charging is the thing, but with solar electricity there is not a lot of it around during the night! So this means wind has to fill in here, but that does not always blow, meaning there still is a large need for conventional electricity. No will many say, electricity storage will do here. With current state of battery technology I doubt that will be feasible. What will, I don't know. Just pointing out problems I see here.

Also something to think about. Do we have any idea of the long term influence of what we are doing? Erecting big wind farms everywhere on the planet. What does this do to the climate. Are we changing micro climates that can have an impact on the big picture? Think of it, a wind mill takes energy from wind blowing, reducing its strength a bit. On a large enough scale, does this change how clouds are being dispersed and with that change rain distribution?

Same question with wind farms in the north sea. All the pillars that stand on the seabed how do they affect current flow and with that temperature distribution through the water?

Solar installations on grasslands, how does that affect the thermal behavior? We know that asphalt has a big impact where it comes to heat. It absorbs a lot during the day and releases it at night.

See the bigger picture here? Do we know about the long term effect of what we are doing to try and change the effects of what we already did?

And don't come knocking with "sure we do, because we did simulations on the computer". These are just simulations based on models that we tune to get the outcome we want. Look at weather predictions. These are based on models and are often wrong, at least here where I live. Has to do with the mountain range in the Cantal. We use three different website to check the forecast and they mostly differ between them and can't even seem to predict it right for the current day.

Take from it what you will, again just my 2 cents worth.
pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 08:02:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 07:50:22 pm ---Oh I see, so it is equal challenge to providing every household with a stationary 3kg box costing 500USD that needs 50W of power from standard (already there) outlet to function. You literally could not have found worse comparison.

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I'm pretty sure the 50W figure is in error somehow, but I'm not sure what you're talking about to know what it should be. Surely not 50kW (not available from a standard outlet), but I also can't figure out what you could do with only 50W that's relevant to BEVs. Could you clarify?

--- End quote ---

He was talking about a computer, reffering to gnuarm his remark that he was typing his message on something that was not available some 30 odd years ago.
tom66:
Yes, street dwellers will need infrastructure.

NO, it doesn't need to be on the street.

- It can be in town when they visit, or at the supermarket (a bank of 50kW units)
- It can be at a "petrol station" but electric
- It can be at work
- It can be by a mobile service (there's literally a service that drives around in London and gives people 20kWh quickly)

The average driver at 20 miles per day or 140 miles per week would only need a charge about once a week. 

If you look at London then you get a pretty good idea of what the start of on street charging looks like.

As far as I am aware there is no proposal to extend home electrics to the street (some have done it, but it's complicated, messy and a safety engineering nightmare.)  A better approach is to have proper on street infrastructure.  Some have used existing street light feeds, which are often connected to the distribution ring main (through a 20-30A fuse) and so have more than enough capacity.  Others are bona-fide new infrastructure.

For those who wanted to access discounted tariffs like homeowners do, I think it should be possible that a street charger in the same region as your house has the same kWh cost.  A higher standing charge covers infrastructure repair.
Miyuki:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 09:06:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 18, 2022, 07:59:57 pm ---There will be some offset by this:
"it takes around 2 to 3kWh of electricity and 2 to 3kWh of heat energy (DOE figures) to produce a gallon of gas"
If the numbers are correct then it is a significant portion of the electricity needed for EVs when switched from ICEs
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I've looked for substantiation of these numbers and it is not to be found.  The "heat energy" is not particularly relevant unless the source of that energy is given.  The 2 to 3 kWh of electricity is probably more like 0.5 kWh.  If I find the sources of this info, I'll post it here. 

--- Quote ---Vanadium flow batteries are around for at least a decade yet is anywhere any working installation?
--- End quote ---

By "around" you mean they were invented a decade ago.  So?  Why is that relevant?  The application of grid storage is very recent and every technology for that purpose is relatively new.  Lithium ion batteries are only used for grid storage because of the advances in production from Tesla's use in autos.  Now we need similar advances in production for vanadium flow batteries. 

--- End quote ---

That numbers about gas processing vary widely so it is hard to get any relevant ones

I know lithium batteries had already scaled production. But Vanadium flow was presented as a quick "magical" solution.
And even when some are built recently, they are small compared to Lithium based installations.
So it seems there is some huge technical difficulty in turning them from a lab demonstrator to a commercial scale.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Hydrogen storage might a necessity in European conditions
Because you need to withstand a winter when you have minuscule solar power and wind can stop blowing for weeks (it happens quite commonly)
So to be able to have fossils as a backup for the worst case you need about 1 week of storage (for peak draw power as it happens in the same time)
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Sorry, that doesn't make sense.  How does a need for "fossils" turn into storing hydrogen?  If you are going to use fossil fuel, why not just store that?



--- Quote ---And to be 100% renewable + nuclear it will have to be at least one whole month worth of energy
There is no way around it. Sahara solar farm is not a realistic approach as it is not a stable region. And you won't be able to transfer energy across Europe anyway.
So some huge chemical storage is a must.
In the US it can be significantly different.

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Don't forget that nuclear requires storage.  It has the opposite problem of renewables which are intermittent.  Nuclear is not easy to scale back.  Not only is that uneconomical, but if you try to ramp it up and down for the daily cycle, you end up xenon poisoning the reactor.  So it needs to store energy at the slack demand times so it doesn't get throttled back, then it needs the additional energy reserve to power the peak times.

The US also has political instability issues.  Texas, a very large region, is an independent grid.  So the rest of the US has to operate around them, even though they are an ideal location for wind power.  I'm hoping they will secede so we can treat them as a foreign country, possibly hostile.

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Either there needs to be a fossil backup or huge storage of hydrogen, electrolyzed from hugely abundant electricity in times when conditions are ideal
Because if you scale renewable to be more than a few percent of the average load you end up with idling solar and wind for a big portion of the time when will the sun shine and wind blow at the same time.
So you have basically "free" electricity

Nuclear can easily just dump "waste" power to the cooling tower. This is not an issue, just wasteful behavior.

As renewable electricity price is massively volatile even on an hour-to-hour scale, you can use this time when it is so abundant its price fall to zero to things with relatively low efficiency.
Like electrolyzing water and then burning that hydrogen to get power.
Or just wait with high energy demand tasks to this time, not all can be timed, but a surprisingly big portion can be.
For example, in households, most energy consumption tasks like water and space heating and cooling (which can be done with proper insulation without any effect on comfort), clothes, and dishwashing can be easily delayed to the high generation times. Just bill the actual price of electricity to people and most of them will do it. And this is way over 50% of consumption for most houses.
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 02:31:07 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 02:29:37 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:09:55 am ---But if you are forced to park on the public street you don't have the same easy options.
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People choose to own a car and park it on the street. So many choices! Upsides and downsides to those choices.

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That is not always the case, but it does nicely identify those with the privilege.

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Is owning a car now considered a privilege?
How about it being a basic human right, and a consequence of living above the poverty line?


--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 am ---
Also something to think about. Do we have any idea of the long term influence of what we are doing? Erecting big wind farms everywhere on the planet. What does this do to the climate.

--- End quote ---
Nothing.

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 am ---See the bigger picture here?

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Not really, I see ramblings, which are basically equivalent to the "Solarpanels are going to suck away the energy from the sun and we will all live in darkness"


--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 am --- Look at weather predictions. These are based on models and are often wrong, at least here where I live.

--- End quote ---
You are either looking at low quality websites doing predictions. Or your expectations are too high, and you want to know the weather more than 5 days in advance. There are weather models that take 27 parameters in a 100m grid, and can predict pretty much how the weather will be for maybe two weeks. The best supercomputers have trouble running the model in real time, plus the smallest observation error, measurement error will change the outcome.
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