General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:34:56 pm ---25% of UK households have no car, 30% of Dutch households have no car. It's not some fringe thing or solely out of poverty, but a legitimate choice for many.
--- End quote ---
Where did you get those numbers? The report you linked to says 12.9% in 2014 (which is higher compared to 2010; keep in mind 2014 is just after the credit crunch). Since then the number of cars in the NL has grown by more than 14%.
But your whole 'it is a choice' theme is utterly ridiculous. For many owning a car means being able to make more money and thus have a better live. Who wouldn't want a better life? It is stupid to even question that.
In the same 'it is a choice' reasoning you can also say to stay alive or kill yourself is also a choice. It is ridiculous and your trademark method to bait people into endless circular discussions.
Monkeh:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:46:40 pm ---a thesis elaborating on this without relying on hyperbole and nonsense
--- End quote ---
If the only work available to you to support your basic living expenses requires travel by car, and the only accomodation available within the budget this creates has no parking, this is not hyperbole nor nonsense. And yes, those conditions exist simultaneously for many, even if you have never been placed in such a position (this is the privilege I have been describing - a lost point to most of those with it).
Technically, one has the choice to have none of the three (job, car, and home) and live on the street where they used to park their car, however very few would consider that a reasonable choice - fewer still who have families.
Cerebus:
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 12:23:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 am ---You imagine there is no choice, while in fact you aren't living in a totalitarian dictatorship eliminating all free will (east Germany anyone?). Your choice of accomodation and job are just that, there is no force requiring you to undertake them with no other option.
People get stuck in what they perceive to be optimal situations, that with a narrow/short view may well be the nearest best option, but miss the wider choices that could be better overall.
--- End quote ---
I don't imagine, I am simply aware that not everyone has the full range of choices you or I have. You seem to be stuck in the optimal situation of having every option available to you at all times with acceptable levels of risk, which simply isn't reality.
--- End quote ---
it's very easy to demonstrate that there are a whole class of people, doing essential jobs, that need personal transport to do them. Any essential worker who works shifts outside of convenient public transportation operating hours: police, nurses, firefighters, utilities workers, transport workers who have to get there first to open up public transport for the day, and so on. There's a sewage works near me, without which most of London would be up to their necks in shit, that needs 24 hour "boots on the ground" workers present - it's not somewhere convenient to 24 hour public transport. It's very easy for the middle classes to completely ignore all those invisible people who make their cities work, often at awkward times of day or in awkward places, who have to live in and get around the cities to do their jobs.
These people don't have a choice of expensive vehicles or expensive properties to live in, not unless we as a society decide to pay them many times more what we do at the moment. To write off their situations as being "choices" reeks of privilege; I'd like someone who takes that attitude try to live without them for a few months. We call these people essential workers for a reason.
Someone:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:53:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:34:56 pm ---25% of UK households have no car, 30% of Dutch households have no car. It's not some fringe thing or solely out of poverty, but a legitimate choice for many.
--- End quote ---
Where did you get those numbers? The report you linked to says 12.9% in 2014. Since then the number of cars in the NL has grown by more than 14%
--- End quote ---
Well done crossing different posts to try and make out like I'm being inconsistent, one is an 8 year old set of data with extensive discussion of underlying reasons for car ownership (or not), vs current figures that you could equally try and find disputing numbers and references but hey:
UK 25%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/adhocs/009922numberofvehiclesperhousehold
Dutch 30%
https://www.iamexpat.nl/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/30-percent-dutch-households-do-not-own-car
or Dutch 26%
http://techzle.com/car-ownership-in-the-netherlands-continues-to-increase
.. specifically noting that more cars per capita /= more households with cars
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 12:53:49 pm ---But your whole 'it is a choice' theme is utterly ridiculous. For many owning a car means being able to make more money and thus have a better live. Who wouldn't want a better life?
--- End quote ---
Some will be better off and some won't, but they have the choice. Its not ridiculous to say people can make choices about these things, for some the choice will be obvious, but the "reasoning" shown in this thread is laughable.
Someone:
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:03:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 12:46:40 pm ---a thesis elaborating on this without relying on hyperbole and nonsense
--- End quote ---
If the only work available to you to support your basic living expenses requires travel by car, and the only accomodation available within the budget this creates has no parking, this is not hyperbole nor nonsense. And yes, those conditions exist simultaneously for many, even if you have never been placed in such a position (this is the privilege I have been describing - a lost point to most of those with it).
Technically, one has the choice to have none of the three (job, car, and home) and live on the street where they used to park their car, however very few would consider that a reasonable choice - fewer still who have families.
--- End quote ---
Choices. Move closer to job, or take different job closer to accomodation. No one is forced with no choice to take a job that they must travel by private car to, they choose because they believe it is in their interests.
do I have to keep repeating this? choice, is for the individual, they make their decision. Owning a car is a choice, working a given job is a choice, living in a particular location is a choice, its a tiny tiny minority who have even one of those "forced" upon them with no choice.
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