General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
Someone:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2022, 01:05:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 12:23:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 am ---You imagine there is no choice, while in fact you aren't living in a totalitarian dictatorship eliminating all free will (east Germany anyone?). Your choice of accomodation and job are just that, there is no force requiring you to undertake them with no other option.
People get stuck in what they perceive to be optimal situations, that with a narrow/short view may well be the nearest best option, but miss the wider choices that could be better overall.
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I don't imagine, I am simply aware that not everyone has the full range of choices you or I have. You seem to be stuck in the optimal situation of having every option available to you at all times with acceptable levels of risk, which simply isn't reality.
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it's very easy to demonstrate that there are a whole class of people, doing essential jobs, that need personal transport to do them. Any essential worker who works shifts outside of convenient public transportation operating hours: police, nurses, firefighters, utilities workers, transport workers who have to get there first to open up public transport for the day, and so on.
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Finally something that can be quantified rather than the sensationalist hand waving.
Australian Census 2016 (2021 is not complete and a covid special so not used), how did different groups of essential workers travel to their job?
TransportPublicDriverPassengerActiveHomeOff WorkAll Workers11.7%63.4%4.6%5.2%4.7%10.4%Medical Practitioners4.7%76.0%2.3%7.2%0.9%9.0%Nursing Professionals5.5%67.5%3.1%4.2%0.3%19.2%Fire and Emergency Workers2.1%67.0%1.5%5.1%0.3%24.1%Police8.8%66.4%1.5%5.7%0.2%17.5%Ambulance Officers and Paramedics0.8%65.8%0.9%4.9%0.2%27.3%Cleaners and Laundry Workers12.4%61.1%8.3%6.3%1.2%10.7%Rubbish Collectors3.7%72.1%6.7%8.9%1.5%7.7%Essential service employees aren't utilising wildly different transport methods, car as driver floats right around the 2/3rds point just a little above the population average.
Or if you take out the days not worked (rotating shift/roster unlike 9-5ers) to see the routine weekday transport method:
PublicDriverPassengerActiveHomeAll Workers13.1%70.8%5.2%5.8%5.3%Medical Practitioners5.1%83.5%2.6%7.9%0.9%Nursing Professionals6.9%83.6%3.9%5.2%0.4%Fire and Emergency Workers2.7%88.3%2.0%6.7%0.4%Police10.7%80.4%1.8%6.9%0.2%Ambulance Officers and Paramedics1.1%90.7%1.2%6.8%0.3%Cleaners and Laundry Workers13.9%68.4%9.3%7.1%1.3%Rubbish Collectors4.0%77.6%7.3%9.6%1.6%No clear bias towards those occupations needing a car any more than others. That really needs correcting for income (a much stronger influence on travel mode) as the lowest paying jobs are using carpool/ride share (passenger) at a higher rate (as do for example construction labourers). The benefits of a private car is elevated in some situations, but there are still choices.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:48:38 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:02:52 am ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 18, 2022, 10:28:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 08:31:59 pm ---
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And I'm sure you're quite happy to go and invest tens of thousands of dollars into a vehicle which is impractical for you with no foreseeable change to that fact. The rest of the world has other ideas.
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You seem to have snipped something you wanted to reply to. But my BEV is not impractical in any way. It works very well and charging is nearly everywhere.
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There was nothing of substance to reply to, merely the presence of your attempted reply.
Your BEV may be practical - you are missing the issue that for many people it simply would not be and no change to this is in sight despite your assertion that there is no problem. Nobody is going to buy a BEV which they cannot practically use based upon the dream that someone else will shortly turn up and fix it.
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You can't seem to separate this moment from the future. Yes, I agree that as of this moment, there are problems for some people to charge a BEV at home. But to assert it will not change, that it can not change is absurd.
Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.
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--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 am ---Cerebus: I'm not handwaving. I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem. It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock.
Ok, that is what I have said several times. Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem. I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.
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It is an intractable problem for those who have it, and the vast majority of those are not in a position to keep changing their vehicles.
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But you said I was investing in a vehicle that was impractical for me.
Again, you can't seem to think a few years ahead. Ok, you will live in the past riding a horse if you want to. Enjoy the fertilizer in your garden.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2022, 02:09:55 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 am ---Cerebus: I'm not handwaving. I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem. It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock.
Ok, that is what I have said several times. Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem. I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.
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To the person making a decision ot buy an EV it doesn't matter that the probem can be solved, or may be solved in the future, it's a simple fact that it doesn't work for them NOW.
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No one has said anything different.
--- Quote ---And solving street parking charging is not as easy as solving say a home charging problem.
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Technically they are not so much different. It's just a matter of deciding how it is paid for and who is responsible for continuing costs. One very obvious solution is a new type of utility, not unlike the electric company, perhaps even the electric company.
Is this really so hard to consider, that we have a need and a way to supply that need should be found? Why are people so close minded to the idea that there are solutions?
--- Quote ---Installing an extra power in your garage or outside your house and running an extension lead is trivial, you can do it yourself or just hire an electrican to do it fairly easily, so it's no impedement to buying an EV.
But if you are forced to park on the public street you don't have the same easy options. And regardless of how much effort oyu put into solving this problem, there wil ALWAYS be people who are unable to buy an EV because of the charging issue.
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Simply not a fact. I challenge you to find a solution. You have been made the head commissioner of EV development for Australia and the fate of your country is in your hands! Now, where do you start?
--- Quote ---EV's will never reach the convenience point of getting 500km range in 2 minutes at a petrol station like ICE cars. So you need to be a certain kind of buys to go for an EV. This will not change for the forseeable future.
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Fortunately this "convenience point" is vastly outweighed by the savings of time you currently spend filling your tank at the gas station every week. 5 minutes x 52 times a year gives 260 minutes a year or 4:20. That's a lot of BEV trip charging, over 2,000 miles. Do you drive 2,000 miles/3,200 km of trips?
I really get tired of hearing the whining about time spent charging from all the people who have not even tried to understand the change in the paradigm. People are just too used to the idea of running the tank down, then running to the gas station to fill up. THAT'S THE INCONVENIENT auto model. Instead of the car telling you when to fill, you simply keep the car topped off every night. How much more simple could it be?
So here's another question. What will you do with all the gas stations when they close? What can they become after the leaky gas tanks are pulled from the ground and the mess cleaned up?
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 19, 2022, 02:33:55 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 19, 2022, 01:06:30 am ---Cerebus: I'm not handwaving. I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem. It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock.
Ok, that is what I have said several times. Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem. I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.
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If it just requires "a bit of innovative thinking" then you should be able to provide that if it's so simple. Reducing it to "a bit of innovative thinking" without proposing even the faintest hint of a concrete solution is exactly handwaving.
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Happy to. What's the problem to be solved? If it's charging BEVs, the obvious solution is to install charging.
Next!
--- Quote ---Of course, it doesn't just require "a bit of innovative thinking" it requires 100s of billions of pounds spent on infrastructure for the UK alone before BEVs for the masses is a practical thing the way ICE vehicles currently are.
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UK has 33 million cars * £1,500 per EVSE = £46 billion. Let's say half of those are installed at home by the owners. Another 25% are installed in apartment and condo parking facilities at the owners' expense. That leaves us with 25% that need to be installed, so about £10 billion, give or take.
1) Add a car tax at time of sale of £330 and you will have the money needed to install charging everywhere cars are parked. This tax can be designated as an infrastructure tax and specifically stated to exist for just 15 years.
2) Grant a monopoly to a public utility (including a new one) for the purpose of installing charging at appropriate locations. The utility will provide the capital outlay and have regulated profits just like the electric and water companies.
3) Provide incentives for commercial investment in appropriate charging facilities. Allow competition to provide charging where charging is needed.
Are these enough options? I suppose there is going to be much nitpicking.
--- Quote ---These are hard costs, not costs that benefit much from economies of scale. Someone has to dig the roads, install a vast number of public charging points where they are convenient for all people to use at a reasonable price* and wire the whole lot to the electricity distribution system. Someone has to make that investment and until they do BEVs will remain not a mass market thing but the playthings of dilettantes with upwards of £30k to spend and a relatively large property with off street parking that they can fit their own charger in.[\quote]
I am so tired of people with limited imagination whining about how massive the task is to install a charge point. Yes, it has to be done 33 million times in the UK. You have 15 years to git 'er done. Better if you stop whining and start now.
--- Quote ---London currently has around 6000 EV public charge points, mostly 7kW slow AC chargers
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Which are fast for level 2 charging and EXACTLY what you want!!! BEVs are not gas fueled smoke belchers. You don't stand around waiting for them to charge. You charge when they are parked, which is 95% of the time. Parked at home, be charging. Parked at work, be charging. Parked which shopping or at a movie, be charging.
I remember years ago, Ed Begley Jr told people that EVs were very practical if you just remember, ABC, Always Be Charging. You don't need to take that literally, but the point is you should forget the mindset of the ICE overlord telling you to "feed me"! Just give it a binky whenever it is parked.
--- Quote ---a population of 9.5 million people, and currently 2.6 million cars registered to London addresses. One charge point, of the type that needs a whole night to charge a typical BEV, per 433 cars. Say for arguments sake that's one charge per car per week. That cuts the factor to around 62. So we are short 370,000 charge points just for London. If we take your mythical 10 years when all will be solved, that requires the equivalent of 102 off 7kW chargers to be installed in London every day. Or to put it differently, the number of public chargers currently available would have to double in the next two months.
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Yes, 100 level 2 chargers per day is very doable. Thank you for showing this.
--- Quote ---The whole UK has less than 35,000 public charging points in total, only ~5000 are rapid or ultra rapid. If we are going to ban the sale of new ICE cars in 2030 as mooted, a shit load of infrastructure needs building in the next 8 years to support the 2-3 million new cars purchased a year in the UK plus the BEV and PHEVs sold in the interim before BEVs become the only game in town..
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To help with clarity, the fast chargers are needed for charging while you wait, such as on trips. They are typically located along highways. Level 2 charging is used for the daily, routine, overnight charging.
Did the UK ban the sale of ICE by 2030? That's very progressive. Clearly not everyone in the UK is defeatist.
--- Quote ---* A lot of the current public charge points charge double what you'd pay for home charging without even offering fast charging.
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Yes, it is cheaper to charge at home. You probably don't want to use fast charging. You have to wait around for that needing to move your car when done or pay a fee for occupying the spot. Level 2 charging is intended to happen while you do other things, so they typically don't charge idle fees.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:51:23 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 11:57:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2022, 11:21:30 pm ---I've been very lucky, my neighbours are considerate, and I get to park in front of my house almost all the time, and so can cobble together charging at the kerb, running a cable under a safety yellow tread strip. But as soon as there are a few people in my street needing to do that you can bet your last dollar that the local authority will ban it on safety grounds, and probably rightly once these become a common hazard to foot traffic rather than a rare one.
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Yup. In the city where I live you get a 259 euro fine for putting a cable over the side walk (to charge your EV). Even if it is in a safety strip.
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That is so typical of politics :-DD On the one hand they push you into buying an EV, but when you do and try to charge it with a cable running from your house to the car over "public" land then you get fined for it. :palm:
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That's a bit silly. Not allowing obstructions on sidewalks is a very reasonable restriction. It does not prevent the installation of a permanent connection point for BEV charging. This is something local governments will need to address.
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--- Quote from: Someone on August 18, 2022, 11:01:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 18, 2022, 06:16:27 pm ---I have asked about the actual numbers in another thread, but no one seems to know. Categorized per system emitting CO2 what the actual values are. The main focus at the moment is on the car and the households using fossil fuels to run. Some say this only takes up a very small share in the total CO2 emission the human race is responsible for.
So is there a chart that shows how much CO2 a human or other big animal produces by eating and pooping, how much industry produces, how much house holds produce, how much cars produce, etc.
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That sort of data is readily available:
https://www.csiro.au/en/research/environmental-impacts/climate-change/climate-change-qa/sources-of-ghg-gases
reported in co2 "equivalent"
Private transport is somewhere around 5-10% of total Australian emissions by that measure. Still a bigger opportunity for change than things like LED bulb replacement (and the carbon offsets that were shuffled around on that).
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Still only a partial answer, but an interesting take from it: Generating electricity is the number one in producing CO2 emission, and what do we do, switch to EV's which use electricity. Sure there is a big movement to get electricity from "renewables", which I find a wrong term for solar and wind, but that is another discussion.
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I hope you understand the increased efficiency of the BEV power process is so much more efficient that it results in only a third of the pollution, even when the electricity is generated from coal! So in the short term, BEVs are a 66% improvement in pollution and longer term they can use renewables.
--- Quote ---Through this thread I saw mentioned a lot that overnight charging is the thing, but with solar electricity there is not a lot of it around during the night! So this means wind has to fill in here, but that does not always blow, meaning there still is a large need for conventional electricity. No will many say, electricity storage will do here. With current state of battery technology I doubt that will be feasible. What will, I don't know. Just pointing out problems I see here.
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Ok, forget storage. How about charging during the day? BEVs and renewable energy sources are the perfect marriage. Most renewables are intermittent and require storage if they will become the 100% energy solution. What do BEVs have, STORAGE!!! You can charge when the energy is available, then drive your BEV all week in bad weather, blocking the sun and the wind not blowing! Not that this really happens. Wind is very seldom at 0%. The same is true for solar during the day. Even on cloudy days solar can still generate power. But your BEVs will be able to ride through nearly all outages.
--- Quote ---Also something to think about. Do we have any idea of the long term influence of what we are doing? Erecting big wind farms everywhere on the planet. What does this do to the climate. Are we changing micro climates that can have an impact on the big picture? Think of it, a wind mill takes energy from wind blowing, reducing its strength a bit. On a large enough scale, does this change how clouds are being dispersed and with that change rain distribution?
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If you had any idea of the magnitude of the wind over the Earth's surface, you would realize this is simply not a real concern.
--- Quote ---Same question with wind farms in the north sea. All the pillars that stand on the seabed how do they affect current flow and with that temperature distribution through the water?
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So it's Henny Penny? It's a problem until we prove it's not a problem? You should take a look at how far apart wind turbines are installed.
--- Quote ---Solar installations on grasslands, how does that affect the thermal behavior? We know that asphalt has a big impact where it comes to heat. It absorbs a lot during the day and releases it at night.
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Huh??? What???
--- Quote ---See the bigger picture here? Do we know about the long term effect of what we are doing to try and change the effects of what we already did?
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We know they are much, much smaller than the very well measured impacts of burning fossil fuels. So, if, in 40 years, we find the wind turbines are a problem, we can accelerate our efforts in fusion power and put an end to the energy problem once and for all.
--- Quote ---And don't come knocking with "sure we do, because we did simulations on the computer". These are just simulations based on models that we tune to get the outcome we want. Look at weather predictions. These are based on models and are often wrong, at least here where I live. Has to do with the mountain range in the Cantal. We use three different website to check the forecast and they mostly differ between them and can't even seem to predict it right for the current day.
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Do you even have simulations that show there is a problem? No, you are just wide eye, pie in the sky, spitballing.
--- Quote ---Take from it what you will, again just my 2 cents worth.
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Would you like the change?
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