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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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gnuarm:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 19, 2022, 05:53:47 am ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 18, 2022, 08:02:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on August 18, 2022, 07:50:22 pm ---Oh I see, so it is equal challenge to providing every household with a stationary 3kg box costing 500USD that needs 50W of power from standard (already there) outlet to function. You literally could not have found worse comparison.

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I'm pretty sure the 50W figure is in error somehow, but I'm not sure what you're talking about to know what it should be. Surely not 50kW (not available from a standard outlet), but I also can't figure out what you could do with only 50W that's relevant to BEVs. Could you clarify?

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He was talking about a computer, reffering to gnuarm his remark that he was typing his message on something that was not available some 30 odd years ago.

--- End quote ---

Now that I understand it, yes, that's a great comparison.  The only real issue with charging points is the cost.  PCs originally cost thousands of dollars, coming down in price as the volumes ramped up and technology improved.  The cost is very similar to a charge point and nearly all homes have at least one, if not multiple.  It all happened over a decade or two. 

Great analogy!!!
Monkeh:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 20, 2022, 07:12:34 pm ---Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.
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Property owners provide none of these things.

Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6

I await your suggestions.

E: Or how about this one: https://goo.gl/maps/8nbw3BvUu3bhknUH9
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 19, 2022, 07:46:28 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 18, 2022, 09:06:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 18, 2022, 07:59:57 pm ---There will be some offset by this:
"it takes around 2 to 3kWh of electricity and 2 to 3kWh of heat energy (DOE figures) to produce a gallon of gas"
If the numbers are correct then it is a significant portion of the electricity needed for EVs when switched from ICEs
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I've looked for substantiation of these numbers and it is not to be found.  The "heat energy" is not particularly relevant unless the source of that energy is given.  The 2 to 3 kWh of electricity is probably more like 0.5 kWh.  If I find the sources of this info, I'll post it here. 

--- Quote ---Vanadium flow batteries are around for at least a decade yet is anywhere any working installation?
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By "around" you mean they were invented a decade ago.  So?  Why is that relevant?  The application of grid storage is very recent and every technology for that purpose is relatively new.  Lithium ion batteries are only used for grid storage because of the advances in production from Tesla's use in autos.  Now we need similar advances in production for vanadium flow batteries. 

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That numbers about gas processing vary widely so it is hard to get any relevant ones

I know lithium batteries had already scaled production. But Vanadium flow was presented as a quick "magical" solution.
And even when some are built recently, they are small compared to Lithium based installations.
So it seems there is some huge technical difficulty in turning them from a lab demonstrator to a commercial scale.
--- End quote ---

LOL  Your conclusion does not follow from the facts.  The size of installations is still small because ramping up something like this is a process and takes some time.  The point is vanadium flow batteries are the better match to the need of grid storage, which has to supply much higher energy levels at lower prices than lithium can provide. 

Vanadium has not been fully commercialized, so the price is not as low as it will be.  So give it a few more years and you will see it dominate grid storage.



--- Quote ---
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--- Quote ---Hydrogen storage might a necessity in European conditions
Because you need to withstand a winter when you have minuscule solar power and wind can stop blowing for weeks (it happens quite commonly)
So to be able to have fossils as a backup for the worst case you need about 1 week of storage (for peak draw power as it happens in the same time)
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Sorry, that doesn't make sense.  How does a need for "fossils" turn into storing hydrogen?  If you are going to use fossil fuel, why not just store that?



--- Quote ---And to be 100% renewable + nuclear it will have to be at least one whole month worth of energy
There is no way around it. Sahara solar farm is not a realistic approach as it is not a stable region. And you won't be able to transfer energy across Europe anyway.
So some huge chemical storage is a must.
In the US it can be significantly different.

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Don't forget that nuclear requires storage.  It has the opposite problem of renewables which are intermittent.  Nuclear is not easy to scale back.  Not only is that uneconomical, but if you try to ramp it up and down for the daily cycle, you end up xenon poisoning the reactor.  So it needs to store energy at the slack demand times so it doesn't get throttled back, then it needs the additional energy reserve to power the peak times.

The US also has political instability issues.  Texas, a very large region, is an independent grid.  So the rest of the US has to operate around them, even though they are an ideal location for wind power.  I'm hoping they will secede so we can treat them as a foreign country, possibly hostile.

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Either there needs to be a fossil backup or huge storage of hydrogen, electrolyzed from hugely abundant electricity in times when conditions are ideal
Because if you scale renewable to be more than a few percent of the average load you end up with idling solar and wind for a big portion of the time when will the sun shine and wind blow at the same time.
So you have basically "free" electricity
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Yeah, so why is that a problem?  As long as the renewable resources are low enough in cost idling them is not a significant factor.  You do realize that most regions idle 50% of generating resources every night as demand drops, right? 



--- Quote ---Nuclear can easily just dump "waste" power to the cooling tower. This is not an issue, just wasteful behavior.
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Uh, very expensive wasteful behavior.  That's the problem with nuclear, the cost.  It is only close to economical if it is run at 100%, 24/7.  The down time for refueling is a significant impact on the cost. 



--- Quote ---As renewable electricity price is massively volatile even on an hour-to-hour scale, you can use this time when it is so abundant its price fall to zero to things with relatively low efficiency.
Like electrolyzing water and then burning that hydrogen to get power.
Or just wait with high energy demand tasks to this time, not all can be timed, but a surprisingly big portion can be.
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So far, hydrogen has not proven to be economically practical.  Perhaps when electricity is near free it will be more cost effective. 



--- Quote ---For example, in households, most energy consumption tasks like water and space heating and cooling (which can be done with proper insulation without any effect on comfort), clothes, and dishwashing can be easily delayed to the high generation times. Just bill the actual price of electricity to people and most of them will do it. And this is way over 50% of consumption for most houses.

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Yeah, that is the future.  Oddly enough, many dishwashers allow delayed start to the night, with the thinking that's when it is best, but with large amounts of solar energy, some areas would be better served running them at midday.  Eventually, every appliance will be smart enough to know the energy price and the user's habits, to optimize cost of use and load on the grid.  This will probably require some standardize means of communicating data for this.  Presently the utilities are so far from this level of modernization that it's not funny. 
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 12:06:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 19, 2022, 09:34:51 am ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 08:40:57 am ---Is owning a car now considered a privilege?
How about it being a basic human right, and a consequence of living above the poverty line?
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... can't tell if serious or joke. Car ownership being a basic human right? Even if it were a right, that doesn't make it mandatory or an essential of life.

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Yeah, it is covered by many many legal systems. Just one below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_an_adequate_standard_of_living
And it's impossible for a country in Europe to ban you from car ownership. They can take your license, if you don't deserve it.
Of course there are always hippies and gen-z living in a city center debating this.
But car ownership is not a privilege. It's not something that is given to you by someone else for any reason, you are born with the right.

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Ok, you can own a car.  Doesn't mean you, or anyone else can drive it.  It has to meet requirements to be operated on the road. 

Is that clear enough?
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 19, 2022, 03:06:16 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 02:52:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 02:50:16 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 19, 2022, 02:48:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 19, 2022, 01:53:57 pm ---And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.

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I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

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Are you trolling, or just dense?

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Can you accept that other people would have different opinion or life goals than yours? And they are just as valid.

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I 200% agree in principle but look at the history of Someone and judge by yourself whether he/she is genuinly participating in discussions or just trolling / stirring up sh!t. 
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Yeah, there's no shortage of that here.
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