Author Topic: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...  (Read 56611 times)

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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #325 on: August 19, 2022, 01:24:18 pm »
a thesis elaborating on this without relying on hyperbole and nonsense
If the only work available to you to support your basic living expenses requires travel by car, and the only accomodation available within the budget this creates has no parking, this is not hyperbole nor nonsense. And yes, those conditions exist simultaneously for many, even if you have never been placed in such a position (this is the privilege I have been describing - a lost point to most of those with it).

Technically, one has the choice to have none of the three (job, car, and home) and live on the street where they used to park their car, however very few would consider that a reasonable choice - fewer still who have families.
Choices. Move closer to job, or take different job closer to accomodation. No one is forced with no choice to take a job that they must travel by private car to, they choose because they believe it is in their interests.

do I have to keep repeating this? choice, is for the individual, they make their decision. Owning a car is a choice, working a given job is a choice, living in a particular location is a choice, its a tiny tiny minority who have even one of those "forced" upon them with no choice.

Once again you discount the reality of limited available employment and housing. Do we have to keep repeating that your idyllic world isn't the entire world?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #326 on: August 19, 2022, 01:32:46 pm »
Don't feed the trolls... Don't become the next Wuerstchenhund.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #327 on: August 19, 2022, 01:43:21 pm »
25% of UK households have no car, 30% of Dutch households have no car. It's not some fringe thing or solely out of poverty, but a legitimate choice for many.
Where did you get those numbers? The report you linked to says 12.9% in 2014. Since then the number of cars in the NL has grown by more than 14%
Well done crossing different posts to try and make out like I'm being inconsistent, one is an 8 year old set of data with extensive discussion of underlying reasons for car ownership (or not), vs current figures that you could equally try and find disputing numbers and references but hey:
UK 25%
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/adhocs/009922numberofvehiclesperhousehold
Dutch 30%
https://www.iamexpat.nl/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/30-percent-dutch-households-do-not-own-car
or Dutch 26%
http://techzle.com/car-ownership-in-the-netherlands-continues-to-increase
.. specifically noting that more cars per capita /= more households with cars

But your whole 'it is a choice' theme is utterly ridiculous. For many owning a car means being able to make more money and thus have a better live. Who wouldn't want a better life?
Some will be better off and some won't, but they have the choice. Its not ridiculous to say people can make choices about these things, for some the choice will be obvious, but the "reasoning" shown in this thread is laughable.

https://english.kimnet.nl/publications/publications/2022/02/22/the-widespread-car-ownership-in-the-netherlands


"Car ownership used to be a choice but is now a necessity."
Monkeh, also, about your parking opinion:
"Most Dutch people can park within 10 meters of their homes"

If you want my opinion, build better cities and towns.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #328 on: August 19, 2022, 01:48:50 pm »
Part of the issue is when cars became popular (50's onwards) we never made the assertion that if you want to own a car you have to park it on your own land.  It would have changed housing infrastructure and probably reduced car dependency - probably both - if this was insisted upon.

Instead people just parked it on the street which is odd if you think about it, I'm not allowed to put a skip on the street without oodles of paperwork, a few phone calls and a strict time limit for removal, yet a car can be parked for years, as long as it is taxed and insured!!


 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #329 on: August 19, 2022, 01:53:57 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #330 on: August 19, 2022, 02:48:27 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #331 on: August 19, 2022, 02:50:16 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

Are you trolling, or just dense?

Time to take nctnico's advice.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 02:59:45 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #332 on: August 19, 2022, 02:52:10 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

Are you trolling, or just dense?
Can you accept that other people would have different opinion or life goals than yours? And they are just as valid.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #333 on: August 19, 2022, 03:06:16 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

Are you trolling, or just dense?
Can you accept that other people would have different opinion or life goals than yours? And they are just as valid.
I 200% agree in principle but look at the history of Someone and judge by yourself whether he/she is genuinly participating in discussions or just trolling / stirring up sh!t.  You can find pages of Someone and Wuerstchenhund discussing the same thing going round in circles. Argumentum ad nauseam. I have drawn my conclusion a long time ago.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 03:09:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #334 on: August 19, 2022, 10:19:18 pm »
a thesis elaborating on this without relying on hyperbole and nonsense
If the only work available to you to support your basic living expenses requires travel by car, and the only accomodation available within the budget this creates has no parking, this is not hyperbole nor nonsense. And yes, those conditions exist simultaneously for many, even if you have never been placed in such a position (this is the privilege I have been describing - a lost point to most of those with it).

Technically, one has the choice to have none of the three (job, car, and home) and live on the street where they used to park their car, however very few would consider that a reasonable choice - fewer still who have families.
Choices. Move closer to job, or take different job closer to accomodation. No one is forced with no choice to take a job that they must travel by private car to, they choose because they believe it is in their interests.

do I have to keep repeating this? choice, is for the individual, they make their decision. Owning a car is a choice, working a given job is a choice, living in a particular location is a choice, its a tiny tiny minority who have even one of those "forced" upon them with no choice.
Once again you discount the reality of limited available employment and housing. Do we have to keep repeating that your idyllic world isn't the entire world?
Limited, but not singular, there is choice. Your extreme position is plainly nonsense.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #335 on: August 19, 2022, 10:38:23 pm »
You imagine there is no choice, while in fact you aren't living in a totalitarian dictatorship eliminating all free will (east Germany anyone?). Your choice of accomodation and job are just that, there is no force requiring you to undertake them with no other option.

People get stuck in what they perceive to be optimal situations, that with a narrow/short view may well be the nearest best option, but miss the wider choices that could be better overall.
I don't imagine, I am simply aware that not everyone has the full range of choices you or I have. You seem to be stuck in the optimal situation of having every option available to you at all times with acceptable levels of risk, which simply isn't reality.
it's very easy to demonstrate that there are a whole class of people, doing essential jobs, that need personal transport to do them. Any essential worker who works shifts outside of convenient public transportation operating hours: police, nurses, firefighters, utilities workers, transport workers who have to get there first to open up public transport for the day, and so on.
Finally something that can be quantified rather than the sensationalist hand waving.

Australian Census 2016 (2021 is not complete and a covid special so not used), how did different groups of essential workers travel to their job?
TransportPublicDriverPassengerActiveHomeOff Work
All Workers11.7%63.4%4.6%5.2%4.7%10.4%
Medical Practitioners4.7%76.0%2.3%7.2%0.9%9.0%
Nursing Professionals5.5%67.5%3.1%4.2%0.3%19.2%
Fire and Emergency Workers2.1%67.0%1.5%5.1%0.3%24.1%
Police8.8%66.4%1.5%5.7%0.2%17.5%
Ambulance Officers and Paramedics0.8%65.8%0.9%4.9%0.2%27.3%
Cleaners and Laundry Workers12.4%61.1%8.3%6.3%1.2%10.7%
Rubbish Collectors3.7%72.1%6.7%8.9%1.5%7.7%
Essential service employees aren't utilising wildly different transport methods, car as driver floats right around the 2/3rds point just a little above the population average.

Or if you take out the days not worked (rotating shift/roster unlike 9-5ers) to see the routine weekday transport method:
PublicDriverPassengerActiveHome
All Workers13.1%70.8%5.2%5.8%5.3%
Medical Practitioners5.1%83.5%2.6%7.9%0.9%
Nursing Professionals6.9%83.6%3.9%5.2%0.4%
Fire and Emergency Workers2.7%88.3%2.0%6.7%0.4%
Police10.7%80.4%1.8%6.9%0.2%
Ambulance Officers and Paramedics1.1%90.7%1.2%6.8%0.3%
Cleaners and Laundry Workers13.9%68.4%9.3%7.1%1.3%
Rubbish Collectors4.0%77.6%7.3%9.6%1.6%
No clear bias towards those occupations needing a car any more than others. That really needs correcting for income (a much stronger influence on travel mode) as the lowest paying jobs are using carpool/ride share (passenger) at a higher rate (as do for example construction labourers). The benefits of a private car is elevated in some situations, but there are still choices.
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #336 on: August 20, 2022, 07:12:34 pm »

And I'm sure you're quite happy to go and invest tens of thousands of dollars into a vehicle which is impractical for you with no foreseeable change to that fact. The rest of the world has other ideas.

You seem to have snipped something you wanted to reply to.  But my BEV is not impractical in any way.  It works very well and charging is nearly everywhere.

There was nothing of substance to reply to, merely the presence of your attempted reply.

Your BEV may be practical - you are missing the issue that for many people it simply would not be and no change to this is in sight despite your assertion that there is no problem. Nobody is going to buy a BEV which they cannot practically use based upon the dream that someone else will shortly turn up and fix it.

You can't seem to separate this moment from the future.  Yes, I agree that as of this moment, there are problems for some people to charge a BEV at home.  But to assert it will not change, that it can not change is absurd. 

Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.


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Cerebus:  I'm not handwaving.  I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem.  It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock. 

Ok, that is what I have said several times.  Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem.  I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.

It is an intractable problem for those who have it, and the vast majority of those are not in a position to keep changing their vehicles.

But you said I was investing in a vehicle that was impractical for me

Again, you can't seem to think a few years ahead.  Ok, you will live in the past riding a horse if you want to.  Enjoy the fertilizer in your garden.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #337 on: August 20, 2022, 07:26:40 pm »
Cerebus:  I'm not handwaving.  I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem.  It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock. 
Ok, that is what I have said several times.  Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem.  I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.

To the person making a decision ot buy an EV it doesn't matter that the probem can be solved, or may be solved in the future, it's a simple fact that it doesn't work for them NOW.

No one has said anything different. 


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And solving street parking charging is not as easy as solving say a home charging problem.

Technically they are not so much different.  It's just a matter of deciding how it is paid for and who is responsible for continuing costs.  One very obvious solution is a new type of utility, not unlike the electric company, perhaps even the electric company. 

Is this really so hard to consider, that we have a need and a way to supply that need should be found?  Why are people so close minded to the idea that there are solutions?


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Installing an extra power in your garage or outside your house and running an extension lead is trivial, you can do it yourself or just hire an electrican to do it fairly easily, so it's no impedement to buying an EV.
But if you are forced to park on the public street you don't have the same easy options. And regardless of how much effort oyu put into solving this problem, there wil ALWAYS be people who are unable to buy an EV because of the charging issue.

Simply not a fact.  I challenge you to find a solution.  You have been made the head commissioner of EV development for Australia and the fate of your country is in your hands!  Now, where do you start?


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EV's will never reach the convenience point of getting 500km range in 2 minutes at a petrol station like ICE cars. So you need to be a certain kind of buys to go for an EV. This will not change for the forseeable future.

Fortunately this "convenience point" is vastly outweighed by the savings of time you currently spend filling your tank at the gas station every week.   5 minutes x 52 times a year gives 260 minutes a year or 4:20.  That's a lot of BEV trip charging, over 2,000 miles.  Do you drive 2,000 miles/3,200 km of trips? 

I really get tired of hearing the whining about time spent charging from all the people who have not even tried to understand the change in the paradigm.  People are just too used to the idea of running the tank down, then running to the gas station to fill up.  THAT'S THE INCONVENIENT auto model.  Instead of the car telling you when to fill, you simply keep the car topped off every night.  How much more simple could it be?

So here's another question.  What will you do with all the gas stations when they close?  What can they become after the leaky gas tanks are pulled from the ground and the mess cleaned up? 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #338 on: August 20, 2022, 08:05:11 pm »
Cerebus:  I'm not handwaving.  I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem.  It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock. 

Ok, that is what I have said several times.  Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem.  I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.

If it just requires "a bit of innovative thinking" then you should be able to provide that if it's so simple. Reducing it to "a bit of innovative thinking" without proposing even the faintest hint of a concrete solution is exactly handwaving.

Happy to.  What's the problem to be solved?  If it's charging BEVs, the obvious solution is to install charging. 

Next!


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Of course, it doesn't just require "a bit of innovative thinking" it requires 100s of billions of pounds spent on infrastructure for the UK alone before BEVs for the masses is a practical thing the way ICE vehicles currently are.

UK has 33 million cars * £1,500 per EVSE = £46 billion.  Let's say half of those are installed at home by the owners.  Another 25% are installed in apartment and condo parking facilities at the owners' expense.  That leaves us with 25% that need to be installed, so about £10 billion, give or take.

1) Add a car tax at time of sale of £330 and you will have the money needed to install charging everywhere cars are parked.  This tax can be designated as an infrastructure tax and specifically stated to exist for just 15 years. 

2) Grant a monopoly to a public utility (including a new one) for the purpose of installing charging at appropriate locations.  The utility will provide the capital outlay and have regulated profits just like the electric and water companies.

3) Provide incentives for commercial investment in appropriate charging facilities.  Allow competition to provide charging where charging is needed. 

Are these enough options?  I suppose there is going to be much nitpicking.


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These are hard costs, not costs that benefit much from economies of scale. Someone has to dig the roads, install a vast number of public charging points where they are convenient for all people to use at a reasonable price* and wire the whole lot to the electricity distribution system. Someone has to make that investment and until they do BEVs will remain not a mass market thing but the playthings of dilettantes with upwards of £30k to spend and a relatively large property with off street parking that they can fit their own charger in.[\quote]

I am so tired of people with limited imagination whining about how massive the task is to install a charge point.  Yes, it has to be done 33 million times in the UK.  You have 15 years to git 'er done.  Better if you stop whining and start now.


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London currently has around 6000 EV public charge points, mostly 7kW slow AC chargers

Which are fast for level 2 charging and EXACTLY what you want!!!  BEVs are not gas fueled smoke belchers.  You don't stand around waiting for them to charge.  You charge when they are parked, which is 95% of the time.  Parked at home, be charging.  Parked at work, be charging.  Parked which shopping or at a movie, be charging. 

I remember years ago, Ed Begley Jr told people that EVs were very practical if you just remember, ABC, Always Be Charging.  You don't need to take that literally, but the point is you should forget the mindset of the ICE overlord telling you to "feed me"!  Just give it a binky whenever it is parked.


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a population of 9.5 million people, and currently 2.6 million cars registered to London addresses. One charge point, of the type that needs a whole night to charge a typical BEV, per 433 cars. Say for arguments sake that's one charge per car per week. That cuts the factor to around 62. So we are short 370,000 charge points just for London. If we take your mythical 10 years when all will be solved, that requires the equivalent of 102 off 7kW chargers to be installed in London every day. Or to put it differently, the number of public chargers currently available would have to double in the next two months.

Yes, 100 level 2 chargers per day is very doable.  Thank you for showing this.


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The whole UK has less than 35,000 public charging points in total, only ~5000 are rapid or ultra rapid. If we are going to ban the sale of new ICE cars in 2030 as mooted, a shit load of infrastructure needs building in the next 8 years to support the 2-3 million new cars purchased a year in the UK plus the BEV and PHEVs sold in the interim before BEVs become the only game in town..

To help with clarity, the fast chargers are needed for charging while you wait, such as on trips.  They are typically located along highways.  Level 2 charging is used for the daily, routine, overnight charging. 

Did the UK ban the sale of ICE by 2030?  That's very progressive.  Clearly not everyone in the UK is defeatist.


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* A lot of the current public charge points charge double what you'd pay for home charging without even offering fast charging.

Yes, it is cheaper to charge at home.  You probably don't want to use fast charging.  You have to wait around for that needing to move your car when done or pay a fee for occupying the spot.  Level 2 charging is intended to happen while you do other things, so they typically don't charge idle fees.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #339 on: August 20, 2022, 08:20:29 pm »
I've been very lucky, my neighbours are considerate, and I get to park in front of my house almost all the time, and so can cobble together charging at the kerb, running a cable under a safety yellow tread strip. But as soon as there are a few people in my street needing to do that you can bet your last dollar that the local authority will ban it on safety grounds, and probably rightly once these become a common hazard to foot traffic rather than a rare one.
Yup. In the city where I live you get a 259 euro fine for putting a cable over the side walk (to charge your EV). Even if it is in a safety strip.

That is so typical of politics :-DD On the one hand they push you into buying an EV, but when you do and try to charge it with a cable running from your house to the car over "public" land then you get fined for it. :palm:

That's a bit silly.  Not allowing obstructions on sidewalks is a very reasonable restriction.  It does not prevent the installation of a permanent connection point for BEV charging.  This is something local governments will need to address.


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I have asked about the actual numbers in another thread, but no one seems to know. Categorized per system emitting CO2 what the actual values are. The main focus at the moment is on the car and the households using fossil fuels to run. Some say this only takes up a very small share in the total CO2 emission the human race is responsible for.

So is there a chart that shows how much CO2 a human or other big animal produces by eating and pooping, how much industry produces, how much house holds produce, how much cars produce, etc.
That sort of data is readily available:
https://www.csiro.au/en/research/environmental-impacts/climate-change/climate-change-qa/sources-of-ghg-gases
reported in co2 "equivalent"
Private transport is somewhere around 5-10% of total Australian emissions by that measure. Still a bigger opportunity for change than things like LED bulb replacement (and the carbon offsets that were shuffled around on that).

Still only a partial answer, but an interesting take from it: Generating electricity is the number one in producing CO2 emission, and what do we do, switch to EV's which use electricity. Sure there is a big movement to get electricity from "renewables", which I find a wrong term for solar and wind, but that is another discussion.

I hope you understand the increased efficiency of the BEV power process is so much more efficient that it results in only a third of the pollution, even when the electricity is generated from coal!  So in the short term, BEVs are a 66% improvement in pollution and longer term they can use renewables.


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Through this thread I saw mentioned a lot that overnight charging is the thing, but with solar electricity there is not a lot of it around during the night! So this means wind has to fill in here, but that does not always blow, meaning there still is a large need for conventional electricity. No will many say, electricity storage will do here. With current state of battery technology I doubt that will be feasible. What will, I don't know. Just pointing out problems I see here.

Ok, forget storage.  How about charging during the day?  BEVs and renewable energy sources are the perfect marriage.  Most renewables are intermittent and require storage if they will become the 100% energy solution.  What do BEVs have, STORAGE!!!  You can charge when the energy is available, then drive your BEV all week in bad weather, blocking the sun and the wind not blowing!  Not that this really happens.  Wind is very seldom at 0%.  The same is true for solar during the day.  Even on cloudy days solar can still generate power.  But your BEVs will be able to ride through nearly all outages.


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Also something to think about. Do we have any idea of the long term influence of what we are doing? Erecting big wind farms everywhere on the planet. What does this do to the climate. Are we changing micro climates that can have an impact on the big picture? Think of it, a wind mill takes energy from wind blowing, reducing its strength a bit. On a large enough scale, does this change how clouds are being dispersed and with that change rain distribution?

If you had any idea of the magnitude of the wind over the Earth's surface, you would realize this is simply not a real concern.


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Same question with wind farms in the north sea. All the pillars that stand on the seabed how do they affect current flow and with that temperature distribution through the water?

So it's Henny Penny?  It's a problem until we prove it's not a problem?  You should take a look at how far apart wind turbines are installed. 


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Solar installations on grasslands, how does that affect the thermal behavior? We know that asphalt has a big impact where it comes to heat. It absorbs a lot during the day and releases it at night.


Huh???  What???


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See the bigger picture here? Do we know about the long term effect of what we are doing to try and change the effects of what we already did?

We know they are much, much smaller than the very well measured impacts of burning fossil fuels.  So, if, in 40 years, we find the wind turbines are a problem, we can accelerate our efforts in fusion power and put an end to the energy problem once and for all.


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And don't come knocking with "sure we do, because we did simulations on the computer". These are just simulations based on models that we tune to get the outcome we want. Look at weather predictions. These are based on models and are often wrong, at least here where I live. Has to do with the mountain range in the Cantal. We use three different website to check the forecast and they mostly differ between them and can't even seem to predict it right for the current day.

Do you even have simulations that show there is a problem?  No, you are just wide eye, pie in the sky, spitballing.


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Take from it what you will, again just my 2 cents worth.

Would you like the change?
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #340 on: August 20, 2022, 08:23:09 pm »
Oh I see, so it is equal challenge to providing every household with a stationary 3kg box costing 500USD that needs 50W of power from standard (already there) outlet to function. You literally could not have found worse comparison.

I'm pretty sure the 50W figure is in error somehow, but I'm not sure what you're talking about to know what it should be. Surely not 50kW (not available from a standard outlet), but I also can't figure out what you could do with only 50W that's relevant to BEVs. Could you clarify?

He was talking about a computer, reffering to gnuarm his remark that he was typing his message on something that was not available some 30 odd years ago.

Now that I understand it, yes, that's a great comparison.  The only real issue with charging points is the cost.  PCs originally cost thousands of dollars, coming down in price as the volumes ramped up and technology improved.  The cost is very similar to a charge point and nearly all homes have at least one, if not multiple.  It all happened over a decade or two. 

Great analogy!!!
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #341 on: August 20, 2022, 08:27:08 pm »
Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.

Property owners provide none of these things.

Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6

I await your suggestions.

E: Or how about this one: https://goo.gl/maps/8nbw3BvUu3bhknUH9
« Last Edit: August 20, 2022, 08:32:33 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #342 on: August 20, 2022, 08:37:10 pm »
There will be some offset by this:
"it takes around 2 to 3kWh of electricity and 2 to 3kWh of heat energy (DOE figures) to produce a gallon of gas"
If the numbers are correct then it is a significant portion of the electricity needed for EVs when switched from ICEs

I've looked for substantiation of these numbers and it is not to be found.  The "heat energy" is not particularly relevant unless the source of that energy is given.  The 2 to 3 kWh of electricity is probably more like 0.5 kWh.  If I find the sources of this info, I'll post it here. 
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Vanadium flow batteries are around for at least a decade yet is anywhere any working installation?

By "around" you mean they were invented a decade ago.  So?  Why is that relevant?  The application of grid storage is very recent and every technology for that purpose is relatively new.  Lithium ion batteries are only used for grid storage because of the advances in production from Tesla's use in autos.  Now we need similar advances in production for vanadium flow batteries. 

That numbers about gas processing vary widely so it is hard to get any relevant ones

I know lithium batteries had already scaled production. But Vanadium flow was presented as a quick "magical" solution.
And even when some are built recently, they are small compared to Lithium based installations.
So it seems there is some huge technical difficulty in turning them from a lab demonstrator to a commercial scale.

LOL  Your conclusion does not follow from the facts.  The size of installations is still small because ramping up something like this is a process and takes some time.  The point is vanadium flow batteries are the better match to the need of grid storage, which has to supply much higher energy levels at lower prices than lithium can provide. 

Vanadium has not been fully commercialized, so the price is not as low as it will be.  So give it a few more years and you will see it dominate grid storage.


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Hydrogen storage might a necessity in European conditions
Because you need to withstand a winter when you have minuscule solar power and wind can stop blowing for weeks (it happens quite commonly)
So to be able to have fossils as a backup for the worst case you need about 1 week of storage (for peak draw power as it happens in the same time)

Sorry, that doesn't make sense.  How does a need for "fossils" turn into storing hydrogen?  If you are going to use fossil fuel, why not just store that?


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And to be 100% renewable + nuclear it will have to be at least one whole month worth of energy
There is no way around it. Sahara solar farm is not a realistic approach as it is not a stable region. And you won't be able to transfer energy across Europe anyway.
So some huge chemical storage is a must.
In the US it can be significantly different.

Don't forget that nuclear requires storage.  It has the opposite problem of renewables which are intermittent.  Nuclear is not easy to scale back.  Not only is that uneconomical, but if you try to ramp it up and down for the daily cycle, you end up xenon poisoning the reactor.  So it needs to store energy at the slack demand times so it doesn't get throttled back, then it needs the additional energy reserve to power the peak times.

The US also has political instability issues.  Texas, a very large region, is an independent grid.  So the rest of the US has to operate around them, even though they are an ideal location for wind power.  I'm hoping they will secede so we can treat them as a foreign country, possibly hostile.
Either there needs to be a fossil backup or huge storage of hydrogen, electrolyzed from hugely abundant electricity in times when conditions are ideal
Because if you scale renewable to be more than a few percent of the average load you end up with idling solar and wind for a big portion of the time when will the sun shine and wind blow at the same time.
So you have basically "free" electricity

Yeah, so why is that a problem?  As long as the renewable resources are low enough in cost idling them is not a significant factor.  You do realize that most regions idle 50% of generating resources every night as demand drops, right? 


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Nuclear can easily just dump "waste" power to the cooling tower. This is not an issue, just wasteful behavior.

Uh, very expensive wasteful behavior.  That's the problem with nuclear, the cost.  It is only close to economical if it is run at 100%, 24/7.  The down time for refueling is a significant impact on the cost. 


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As renewable electricity price is massively volatile even on an hour-to-hour scale, you can use this time when it is so abundant its price fall to zero to things with relatively low efficiency.
Like electrolyzing water and then burning that hydrogen to get power.
Or just wait with high energy demand tasks to this time, not all can be timed, but a surprisingly big portion can be.

So far, hydrogen has not proven to be economically practical.  Perhaps when electricity is near free it will be more cost effective. 


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For example, in households, most energy consumption tasks like water and space heating and cooling (which can be done with proper insulation without any effect on comfort), clothes, and dishwashing can be easily delayed to the high generation times. Just bill the actual price of electricity to people and most of them will do it. And this is way over 50% of consumption for most houses.

Yeah, that is the future.  Oddly enough, many dishwashers allow delayed start to the night, with the thinking that's when it is best, but with large amounts of solar energy, some areas would be better served running them at midday.  Eventually, every appliance will be smart enough to know the energy price and the user's habits, to optimize cost of use and load on the grid.  This will probably require some standardize means of communicating data for this.  Presently the utilities are so far from this level of modernization that it's not funny. 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #343 on: August 20, 2022, 08:40:53 pm »
Is owning a car now considered a privilege?
How about it being a basic human right, and a consequence of living above the poverty line?
... can't tell if serious or joke. Car ownership being a basic human right? Even if it were a right, that doesn't make it mandatory or an essential of life.
Yeah, it is covered by many many legal systems. Just one below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_an_adequate_standard_of_living
And it's impossible for a country in Europe to ban you from car ownership. They can take your license, if you don't deserve it.
Of course there are always hippies and gen-z living in a city center debating this.
But car ownership is not a privilege. It's not something that is given to you by someone else for any reason, you are born with the right.

Ok, you can own a car.  Doesn't mean you, or anyone else can drive it.  It has to meet requirements to be operated on the road. 

Is that clear enough?
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #344 on: August 20, 2022, 08:55:51 pm »
And it's far too late to do it now, so reality unfortunately has diverged from utopian dream.
I don't see why an utopia would exclude cars, and other forms of personal transportation. It's literally an object that gives you freedom to do things at other places, whenever you want.

Are you trolling, or just dense?
Can you accept that other people would have different opinion or life goals than yours? And they are just as valid.
I 200% agree in principle but look at the history of Someone and judge by yourself whether he/she is genuinly participating in discussions or just trolling / stirring up sh!t. 

Yeah, there's no shortage of that here.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #345 on: August 20, 2022, 08:59:43 pm »
Economic pressures will require every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services, your protestations aside.

Property owners provide none of these things.

Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6

I await your suggestions.

E: Or how about this one: https://goo.gl/maps/8nbw3BvUu3bhknUH9

So no one in your city has Internet, cable or other facilities? 

Don't be pedantic.  When I said, "every property owner to provide BEV charging just like they currently provide Internet, cable and other services", I meant access.  No, they don't pay for your cable or Internet service, but you would not have access if they didn't allow the building to be wired for it.  Same with charging. 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #346 on: August 20, 2022, 09:01:56 pm »
Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6

Install drainage gutters like these: https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/case-study/oxgul-e/ allowing those who live on the same side that they park on to charge their vehicles from their home.

Add on street infrastructure according to extra needs, like homes on the alternate side, visitors, etc.  Or negotiate with residents to have public EV infrastructure fitted to their property in return for no standing charge or some discount off charging.

E: Or how about this one: https://goo.gl/maps/8nbw3BvUu3bhknUH9

Much the same.

Some of these issues can be resolved by other means of public charging, like at work, supermarket, or electric "petrol" stations.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #347 on: August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pm »
Here's an example from a friend of mine of a street which will be problematic: https://goo.gl/maps/62227FQWX5SyFpaj6

Install drainage gutters like these: https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/case-study/oxgul-e/ allowing those who live on the same side that they park on to charge their vehicles from their home.
That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2022, 09:16:44 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #348 on: August 20, 2022, 09:34:50 pm »
Cerebus:  I'm not handwaving.  I just know that this is not such an insurmountable problem.  It only requires a bit of innovative thinking rather than not looking past the roadblock. 

Ok, that is what I have said several times.  Many, but not all people from the UK, who discuss this seem to think it is an intractable problem.  I'm willing to bet that in 10 years, solutions abound.

If it just requires "a bit of innovative thinking" then you should be able to provide that if it's so simple. Reducing it to "a bit of innovative thinking" without proposing even the faintest hint of a concrete solution is exactly handwaving.

Happy to.  What's the problem to be solved?  If it's charging BEVs, the obvious solution is to install charging. 

Next!


Are you actively trying to portray yourself as a fool and a gobshite?

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Another 25% are installed in apartment and condo parking facilities at the owners' expense.

 :-DD  :-DD Again you are demonstrating your parochiality and your inability to think more than a few 1000 feet from your front door while ignoring those who actually know and live in the places you are making ex cathedra pronouncements about. To assume that 25% of the population live in "apartment and condo" with dedicated parking facilities proves that you know nothing about the country you're offering an easy fix for. For a start, nobody in the UK lives in anything they call a "condo". I won't bother explaining how it really is or put numbers to it because you'll just ignore them.

Needless to say, your numbers are way off. Good luck getting the electricity company to merely connect a supply to a charge point for the money you think it will cost to connect, supply and install the whole thing. As I said before, you clearly have no idea about infrastructure costs. I've had to contract people to lay and populate ducting in public roads and conduct streetworks - it costs a small fortune and even if you have "code powers" with which one can force local authorities to let you dig up their roads it still involves a mountain of expensive paperwork before the first pickaxe is wielded or the first digger ignition key turned.

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London currently has around 6000 EV public charge points, mostly 7kW slow AC chargers

Which are fast for level 2 charging and EXACTLY what you want!!!  BEVs are not gas fueled smoke belchers.  You don't stand around waiting for them to charge.  You charge when they are parked, which is 95% of the time.  Parked at home, be charging.  Parked at work, be charging.  Parked which shopping or at a movie, be charging. 


I am struggling to decide whether you're being deliberately obtuse or are just plain dim. There are six thousand public charging points for all the PHEVs and BEVs extant in the whole of London. Just how can you miss that point and wander off onto a monologue on what's a suitable style of charging as if the point was about them being 7kW chargers. That was not the point. The relevance of them mostly being only 7kW chargers is that makes them difficult for vehicles to share them serially in quick order. Indeed they would have to charge overnight, which is bugger all use if there are 6000 public chargers for an estimated 263,000 EVs in London. Only an idiot would fail to see that is a significant barrier to adoption of EVs by people who only have access to on-street parking and thus are compelled to use on-street charging, which is the majority of Londoners.

You still seem to completely ignore that for the majority of Britons home charging is not practical or possible, and is not likely to become so in the foreseable future. Nobody, but nobody, is going to buy an EV if they can't first guarantee that they can charge it. You can handwave as much as you like about how easy it is to install charge points, but in the real world they are not being installed at the rate needed to support growth of EV ownership. If it is as easy as you claim and as cheap as you claim then it must make commercial sense and so people should be falling over themselves to do it. Yet they are not. Perhaps, just perhaps, it isn't as cheap and easy as you claim and that's why it's not happening.

You also seem to manage to completely ignore that I'm an EV driver and lecture me as if I've no clue about how they charge, how much charge they need, when they need it etc. etc.

You're so tied up in your own little world that you seem incapable of taking in information from people with first hand experience that differs from your own.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #349 on: August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pm »
That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

It does solve the need, if it's public charging.  Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week.  So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.

Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.
 
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