| General > General Technical Chat |
| Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... |
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| emece67:
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| nctnico:
@gnuarm: The EU already has limits for the average CO2 emissions for all cars sold per manufacturer. Toyota is the only manufacturer meeting the requirement without needing to sell BEVs to compensate because they are the only manufacturer that actually foresaw the future right (and develop hybrid cars). The rest of the manufacturers just screems 'jobs get lost if you add more regulations!' and hope the politicians will swing their way. In the end that isn't going to hold up. And no, you can't leave it to consumers! People say they like to take action but the reality is that they would like to see other people take action. The government needs to be the driving force behind making cars more efficient and more clean while keeping mobility affordable. Small cars get more rare as well (at least in the EU). Manufacturers are pulling out of this market because the margins are too thin. 10 years ago you could buy a car for 8000 euro. Nowadays the same car costs twice as much due to stricter safety regulations and emission requirements. For example: Citroen and Renault used to have a tiny car but they don't sell it any longer. Fuel taxes aren't the answer either. This has been tried in the NL and it doesn't work. Only drives up inflation. So the NL government is taxing purchase prices of cars based on fuel consumption. For some cars that tax is several times the price of the car (a Lada Niva with a list price of 12k euro ends up costing 47k euro including taxes). |
| tom66:
The EU regs seem pretty effective if the goal is electrification of vehicle fleets. We wouldn't have the ID.3 without dieselgate fines and EU regulations. So I think it's still a good thing that they're there. And hybrids are a technology that is going to rapidly die out as larger capacity EV batteries become more common. 58kWh is standard in the ID.3, prior to the chip shortage that was a 26,000 GBP car, not much more than a standard Golf of similar trim. That battery will do over 200 miles. I doubt that most people will pay a lot extra to avoid one charging stop, but we'll see. |
| nctnico:
Again, you are not counting in public charging costs which make BEVs an uneconomic choice for many. Hybrids will be here to stay for the next several decades in larger numbers compared to BEVs simply because hybrids are more economic to drive in. Rest assured that public charging prices will go up when the investors in charging infrastructure (none of them is making a profit at this moment!) start wanting to see return on their investment. After that governments will step in to regulate prices. Just look at how mobile phone operators used to charge an arm & leg for certain services and now got clamped down by governments to charge fair amounts for their services. |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 04:47:01 pm --- --- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 04:17:01 pm ---There have always been plenty of small cars to buy, and this will always continue. If you can't find a small car, that's on you. --- End quote --- It is not on me at all. Even Smarts and Fiat 500 do weight a ton. Smaller cars like Microcar or Ligier are not even legal here to be driven thru a freeway. Maybe you know of any machine allowing one to commute using, say, one fourth of the energy needed by a Prius. Or maybe our concepts of a small car are different. Or maybe I must use a different expression to "car" to noun a machine allowing one to commute. --- End quote --- --- Quote ---I see car manufacturers selling progressively bigger, faster and heavier vehicles --- End quote --- This is what I responded to. You seem to be saying there are no smaller car, but that they keep making larger cars. Now you seem to think a car should weight less than 2,000 lbs (or maybe thats 1,000 kg, a metric ton). Not sure what you are expecting. --- Quote --- --- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 04:17:01 pm ---Car makers have to sell the vehicles people want to buy. Otherwise they become another Hudson or Studebaker. --- End quote --- We no longer can afford to buy anything we want. --- End quote --- Sounds great. So build the cars you want to force on people. I'll wait while you try that. --- Quote --- --- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 04:17:01 pm ---A fuel tax gets right to the heart of the matter. To make it less regressive, we can offer a income tax credit for the first 280 gal (14,000 miles at 50 mpg). So buying a car with worse mileage than 50 mpg or driving more than 14,000 miles, incurs the tax. It also equates to a credit to drive less than 14,000 miles or getting better than 50 mpg. --- End quote --- Fuel taxes exist now and are useless, as they tax equally small and big cars, if I can afford a Hummer, I can afford its petrol. A tax on cars, taxing energy consumed, will be more appropriate, supposed that the tax on monster cars is so high that manufacturers need to think twice. --- End quote --- You don't seem to understand fuel taxes. Or maybe they are different where you are. Here, in the US, they are based on the gallons you burn. If you drive more or drive a less efficient vehicle, you pay more tax. My understanding is fuel taxes are much, much higher in the EU and it very much impacts the choice of cars. |
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