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| Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... |
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| Someone:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pm ---That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure. --- End quote --- It does solve the need, if it's public charging. Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week. So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect. Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home. --- End quote --- I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread. person A) car parking has no cost person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways For the UK numbers, here's what I can find, referenced for those who insist (but never seem to provide themselves), pre-pandemic... Annual distance per car 7000 ish/something miles (20 miles per day) https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts09-vehicle-mileage-and-occupancy https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-and-analysis/ https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-car-mileage-uk 33 million cars https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-tables https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/number-cars-great-britain so with the generous 20kWh/100km, cars evenly spreading their charging is 8GW additional load, incremental increase of 21% over 38GW: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/electricity-statistics an average of 240W per car. It is very easy to imagine most of those cars being able to be hooked up to a domestic scale 2.4kW charge point for at least 1/10 of their life. On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service. Replacing infrastructure, petrol stations (which are servicing the current car fleets need for energy). Number of cars per petrol station 4,000: https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/racf_deloitte-fuel_retail-jan13.pdf Petrol stations aren't big enough to work as parking for slow charging (10%, 400 cars per site), at a moderate 10kW rate it would be squeezy (2.5%, 100 cars per site) but not unimaginable for a multi-storey car park or car stackers. |
| bdunham7:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pm ---]I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread. person A) car parking has no cost person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways --- End quote --- Not ridiculous nor extreme, just different cases. For some, parking has no ongoing incremental cost. I think I'm in that category, but if you protest you can consider the rancher in Montana. If I lived in Manhattan, I'd probably be person B. Everyone's case is different and most people aren't at the average or median of whatever statistic you are quoting at the moment. I could look around my neighborhood of sunny single-family homes and conclude that everyone can get a BEV and solar panels to charge it, just like me. But I've been enough places to realize that the model that works pretty well here might be problematic elsewhere. What is amusing to me is that someone in different circumstances than you can have solar, a BEV and use rideshare--so they're completely familiar with them all and aren't luddites--but when they point out issues and limitations you dismiss that as 'blinkered thinking' or whatever. --- Quote ---On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service. --- End quote --- Hand-waving much? Cheap? Really? How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume. And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging. |
| Someone:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm --- --- Quote from: Someone on August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pm ---On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service. --- End quote --- Hand-waving much? Cheap? Really? How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume. And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging. --- End quote --- You cant leave vehicle charging points as free use, they require some monetising or people will find all sorts of creative ways to use the free power. Parking meters in denser areas are already grid connected here so its not some enormous new additional cost out of nowhere. Convincing people they will have to pay for these things seems to be the enormous road-block. If you aren't owning or paying for your parking I have zero sympathy for your lack of options, since its likely others are already paying/subsidising on your behalf. We have parking at work with electric charging /s for some odd reason /s it's charged both per time of use, and per unit of energy charged. --- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm --- --- Quote from: Someone on August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pm ---]I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread. person A) car parking has no cost person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways --- End quote --- Not ridiculous nor extreme, just different cases. For some, parking has no ongoing incremental cost. I think I'm in that category, but if you protest you can consider the rancher in Montana. --- End quote --- walking back and moving your goalposts now again? The vast majority of people have a cost for parking, it varies but its stupid to say its zero. The argument was clearly framed as an opportunity cost across lifetime, which you flatly disputed and keep coming back nosily to say how you were right all along... when you were always talking about something entirely different, and forgot to actually frame that, instead just going straight for claiming what I'm saying/quoting/referencing is "wrong". Freedom to park your car in a convenient location is a cost, the infrastructure to do so (including charging) is a cost borne by yourself or the community. That it has been "free" for people has distorted their view, because it was never free. |
| bdunham7:
--- Quote from: Someone on August 21, 2022, 12:25:28 am ---That it has been "free" for people has distorted their view, because it was never free. --- End quote --- I think I've explained it clearly enough, but for many people they are paying for parking whether they use it or not. And I've explained how I account for that. It's not a distorted view, it is a cash accounting view. :horse: :horse: :horse: But since you insist that parking is a vital part of the equation and that people's 'life choices' should be based at least in part on parking options, how about the air? An ICE uses 14 times as much air by weight as it does fuel. Since we account for fuel costs, why not the air? |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 20, 2022, 09:34:50 pm ---You also seem to manage to completely ignore that I'm an EV driver and lecture me as if I've no clue about how they charge, how much charge they need, when they need it etc. etc. --- End quote --- So where do you charge? |
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