General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
<< < (72/93) > >>
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Someone on August 21, 2022, 12:25:28 am ---
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 20, 2022, 11:25:23 pm ---On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.
--- End quote ---
Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.
--- End quote ---
You cant leave vehicle charging points as free use, they require some monetising or people will find all sorts of creative ways to use the free power.
--- End quote ---

That's not realistic.  Why do you think this can not be done in a way that precludes improper use?  Do you think people will design vehicles with extra batteries that allow them to steal $5.00 of electricity by sitting out all night charging?  Then they can power their home for a few hours during the day?  Ok, maybe power where you are is a bit more expensive and we are talking about $10 a day.  But it requires a $5,000 battery to implement it.  Yeah, a lot of that is going to happen. 



--- Quote ---Parking meters in denser areas are already grid connected here so its not some enormous new additional cost out of nowhere. Convincing people they will have to pay for these things seems to be the enormous road-block. If you aren't owning or paying for your parking I have zero sympathy for your lack of options, since its likely others are already paying/subsidising on your behalf.
--- End quote ---

???  Paying for what???
EEVblog:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm ---Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume. And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

--- End quote ---

EV owners know all too well the litter of charging companies (and their infrastruture) that have gone bust. I think Australia has at least two defunct ones.
sokoloff:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 20, 2022, 11:37:57 pm ---How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.
--- End quote ---
Around here (New England, but appears to US-wide), DC fast charging is charged at around 2x the cost of electricity.

A lot of office park 6.6kW chargers are charged at the local cost of power but a lot are fed by solar installations (meaning the solar power is effectively being sold at retail rates in the best case).

Both of those arrangements feel “fair” to me as an EV driver and I think they could be sustainable economically. Of course I’d rather charge slower and cheaper at home, but I’m happy to pay 75%-100% premium for DC fast charging to let me make a trip I otherwise couldn’t. Likewise for the office charger case: it doesn’t cost me anything more, so why not just plug in at work?
nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pm ---That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

--- End quote ---

It does solve the need, if it's public charging.  Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week.  So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.

Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.

--- End quote ---
There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.

You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.

Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro). That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car). And that brings me to the next problem: charging spots take scarse parking spots away. In the Netherlands most streets have less parking spaces than cars (by design) and there is very little room for expansion. Earlier this year they actually removed two charging spots from the street where I live because the parking spaces can't be missed.

One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.

But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with. None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point and the problem is that you can't choose from which company to charge from; there will be only one in your street jacking up the prices for as long as they can. At some point prices will become regulated for sure, but that will take decades (*)

* Note: district heating is something similar. One company that serves a whole area without consumers being able to switch to a different supplier. After 30 years of lobbying and proceedings, the Dutch government finally created a law that limits the prices for district heating.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 21, 2022, 03:17:36 am ---But since you insist that parking is a vital part of the equation

--- End quote ---
Don't bother. Parking costs don't matter when comparing TCOs between cars. The parking costs will be identical so they drop out of the equation.
Navigation
Message Index
Next page
Previous page
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...

Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod