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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

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sokoloff:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---There is no advantage of slow charging at all.
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Well then don’t I feel like an idiot having done over 50% of my charging for 7.5 years at around 1.5kW peak and, except for exactly 4 DC fast charge sessions, all the rest at 6.6kW peak.

The big advantage for me was to have a car that was usually “full” with 30 seconds of effort. That’s hundreds of petrol station visits avoided. The second advantage was lesser battery degradation when slow charging to full rather than fast charging to full.

tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.
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We've been over this before.

Let's pretend your 10k euro cost is correct.  I would argue it is not, but for the sake of analysis let's go with it.  If the electricity is just 0.05 EUR extra per kWh above the cost price (ex VAT, other taxes etc.), then 10k euro takes 200,000kWh to pay back.  That is 28,500 hours of charging at 7kW.  There are 87,600 hours in 10 years, so that charger only needs to have >1/3rd occupancy to be profitable.

Now the reality is that installing ten chargers in one street/car park costs much less, per charger, than one charger, because the infrastructure is shared.  It may cost just 1,000 euros per space. 

Car parking spaces themselves cost some 20,000 euros each to construct.  Many of them exist already, sure, but that is land which is dedicated to the car over being a shop or a house or something else.  So it is not as if that land is free.  EV charging offers yet another way to make money from that land. 

Economically it's a no brainer.


--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.
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OK, assholes are assholes.  Not sure what this has to do with EVs.  The infrastructure will be shared just as street parking is shared. 


--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro). That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car).
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The spots I've seen in London tolerate overnight charging from 8pm to 9am, even if the charging finishes before then.  If you have enough infrastructure, it's not a problem!


--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.
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A four-way head is probably just about possible if positioned correctly but you may need a 8-10m long cable.  Most cars come with 4m or less cable length, though you can of course buy longer cables.  An issue with current EVs is that charge points tend to be on random spots all over the vehicle.  Mine is under the VW badge up front, but the e-Golf is in the normal petrol filler place (as bodywork is ~same as petrol Golf).  There needs to be consistency here.  I personally prefer the charging position of ID.3/Ioniq 5/Tesla, which is rear on driver or passenger side.  Ideally there would be a decision on just one side as well, but given manufacturers of petrol cars can't make their minds up on this I may be an optimist.


--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with. None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point [...]
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As you can see here and elsewhere I've justified how charging can be profitable even with small margins.  The problem is that there aren't enough EVs.  We need government subsidies or private investors to take a risk but it is very chicken and egg.  Fortunately it seems to be turning the right way.  I do think it will take the better part of a decade to have the right level of infrastructure though. 

nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 11:54:38 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.
--- End quote ---

We've been over this before.

Let's pretend your 10k euro cost is correct.  I would argue it is not, but for the sake of analysis let's go with it.  If the electricity is just 0.05 EUR extra per kWh above the cost price (ex VAT, other taxes etc.), then 10k euro takes 200,000kWh to pay back.  That is 28,500 hours of charging at 7kW.  There are 87,600 hours in 10 years, so that charger only needs to have >1/3rd occupancy to be profitable.

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No. I wrote 'costs'. As in installation and ongoing costs like having a helpdesk, permits, rent, payment infrastructure, maintenance, fees to have a grid connection, etc. That is the investment from the company that owns the charging point. They will want to make a healthy profit margin and interest from their investment. That money comes from your pocket. You'll likely be sharing a charging point with 3 or 4 others at most (due to distance between home/charging point) so you can see that the infrastructure costs are quite high when many of the cars are BEVs and there are many charging points.

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high. The Dutch government had to step in to force charging point operators to be more open about their pricing but they are still trying to be secretive about it. That story still has some chapters to be written...

Edit: also 20k euro for a parking space sounds way too high. Maybe in Manhattan but not in a regular city. Recently I got quoted 25 euro/m^2 for pavement work. Over here land (to build on) costs around 150 euro per m^2. So a 6mx3m parking space costs 25*18 + 150*18 = around 3.2k euro.

sokoloff:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
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50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

It’s enough that I’ll prefer to charge at home when possible, but when I need it, that price seems fair (particularly in light of your claim that they’re still not making a profit, but I’d feel it was fair even if they were making a profit).

nctnico:

--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
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50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.


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Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

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