General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
tszaboo:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
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50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.
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Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.
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Especially with the current electricity prices. I also just love how a company can say they deliver 100% wind energy, and then claim that the price of electricity went up because of some global conflict. Oh dear, did that conflict stop the winds somehow?
Also I hear someone got a 3 month contract for 60 cent/kwh. At that price some diesel generators might be cheaper than buying it from the grid.
pcprogrammer:
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 21, 2022, 04:43:48 pm ---I also just love how a company can say they deliver 100% wind energy, and then claim that the price of electricity went up because of some global conflict. Oh dear, did that conflict stop the winds somehow?
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Also a nice bit of bull shit that they state to deliver 100% wind energy. Or did they knock on your door to install a special electricity meter that only allows their green colored electrons to pass :-DD
As long as it is all delivered over a single cable there is no telling if your electricity is green. It is all administrative paperwork.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 20, 2022, 10:15:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2022, 09:13:05 pm ---That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.
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It does solve the need, if it's public charging. Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week. So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.
Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.
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There is no advantage of slow charging at all.
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This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of BEV charging. If you fast charge, the car is setting your pace. When not charging, a car on the fast charger ties up significant capital. So you have to disconnect the car when the charging is done, to prevent extra idle fees.
Level 2 charging is actually quite adequate for most uses of BEVs. With an average use of 40 miles per day, this only requires 10 kWh, or less than 2 hours on a typical level 2 charger. Much less capital tied up, so usually no idle fees. The car can be charged any time it is parked.
--- Quote ---My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.
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Sorry, what cost is that exactly?
--- Quote ---You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.
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How are irrational people relevant? Did the police not deal with him? Did the police say, "Good thing this wasn't over a charger or there's nothing we could do"?
--- Quote ---Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro).
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Sounds like your government fails to understand the nature of BEV charging. That's a local problem.
--- Quote ---That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car).
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Exactly! This shows that you need to get that law changed!!!
--- Quote ---And that brings me to the next problem: charging spots take scarse parking spots away. In the Netherlands most streets have less parking spaces than cars (by design)
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Really? So the plan is to make it as disfunctional as possible to own a car? I guess they are really going to have fun with BEVs then. Maybe moving to another country is in order to find a rational government.
--- Quote ---and there is very little room for expansion. Earlier this year they actually removed two charging spots from the street where I live because the parking spaces can't be missed.
One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.
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Sorry, what does that mean, "without needing specific charging space". Are you talking about having a lot of curb and letting people park where they can fit a car?
--- Quote ---But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with.
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It doesn't need to be. The equipment is not very expensive, the parking spot costs more. The electricity is not very expensive, well, not everywhere. Still, you have to pay for the electricity no matter what. So where is the expensive part?
--- Quote ---None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point and the problem is that you can't choose from which company to charge from; there will be only one in your street jacking up the prices for as long as they can. At some point prices will become regulated for sure, but that will take decades (*)
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Like most utilities and public monopolies, the rates can be regulated. That's where this will be headed. After all, it's just a matter of selling electricity.
--- Quote ---* Note: district heating is something similar. One company that serves a whole area without consumers being able to switch to a different supplier. After 30 years of lobbying and proceedings, the Dutch government finally created a law that limits the prices for district heating.
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All this time it was a monopoly, but not regulated? That's strange.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 11:38:36 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 11:18:56 am ---There is no advantage of slow charging at all.
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Well then don’t I feel like an idiot having done over 50% of my charging for 7.5 years at around 1.5kW peak and, except for exactly 4 DC fast charge sessions, all the rest at 6.6kW peak.
The big advantage for me was to have a car that was usually “full” with 30 seconds of effort. That’s hundreds of petrol station visits avoided. The second advantage was lesser battery degradation when slow charging to full rather than fast charging to full.
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People often think of gassing up a car as near zero inconvenience, but it is something you have to think about, in addition to driving there and the time filling up. We have integrated the ICE paradigm into our lifestyle and don't give it a second thought, even though it does take time and effort.
Now, with BEVs, we try to force them into the same mindset of waiting for the battery to be near empty, then "filling it up" and the time for that seems very long. In reality it is not, because you simply don't go to a filling station and "fill it up". You just plug in every evening. People who have not driven a BEV don''t understand the simplicity of it.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
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50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.
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Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.
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I'd like to see those numbers. But real numbers, not made up stuff.
If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE. It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.
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