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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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tom66:
Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 07:44:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
--- End quote ---
50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.


--- End quote ---
Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

--- End quote ---

I'd like to see those numbers.  But real numbers, not made up stuff.

If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE.  It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.

--- End quote ---
If you factor in pollution like NOx and SO2 (the stuff that makes humans sick) then the hybrids wins hands down. I have posted the calculations a long time ago. Even with relatively clean electricity in the Netherlands, a BEV emits 5 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid.

And hybrids address the CO2 problem for sure. As long as BEVs compensate non-hybrid ICE car sales AND electricity used for production and driving isn't 100% renewable, BEVs do nothing for CO2 reduction. Don't forget that BEVs have a much larger CO2 footprint due to production as well. You need to drive around 150k km to break even compared to a regular ICE car. With an efficient hybrid the BEV is likely to lose (which is why you never see hybrids mentioned in CO2 comparisons between BEV / ICE). In China BEVs are an environmental dissaster compared to hybrids due to the amount of coal fired power plants. Toyota has already shown that reduction of CO2 emission is possible without selling any BEVs... All easy to verify information.

BEVs have come a decade too early. Sure, BEVs are nice at some point in the future but not right now. With better battery technology and renewables further developed, BEVs will be a much better and mature product. In 20 to 30 years from now the current BEVs and charging infrastructure will be laughed upon just like the old 'portable' phones or going on internet with a 28k modem.


--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pm ---Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

--- End quote ---
I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.
tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm ---I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

--- End quote ---

Ok, we get it.  You don't like EVs.  But, really, complaining about plugging one in is a bit like complaining about having to press the brake now and then.  Compared to the overall action of driving a car it really seems pretty bloody minimal!
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pm ---Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

--- End quote ---
Yes, and owning an electric car now will feel like having an iPhone 2G when the 5 comes out. Solid state lithium, twice the range from the same battery, no fire.
bdunham7:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm ---Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement.

--- End quote ---

If you have your own garage space with an L2 EVSE in it, it takes 10-15 seconds every night (at most) and really is a big improvement over going to a gas station once a week or so.  I can't imagine an easier or more convenient way of fueling your car. 
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