General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 08:23:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm ---I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

--- End quote ---

Ok, we get it.  You don't like EVs.  But, really, complaining about plugging one in is a bit like complaining about having to press the brake now and then.  Compared to the overall action of driving a car it really seems pretty bloody minimal!

--- End quote ---
I don't don't like BEVs; you are absolutely wrong about that. I do want a new car to be an improvement though. It would be better if the car didn't need any meddling at all. Driving a car is already something from the stone age (especially with a manual gearbox -looking forward to driving an automatic hybrid-). I want less meddling, not more. Again, plugging in/out all the time and messing with (wet/dirty) wires really isn't an improvement. It is needing more pampering. Especially for someone like me who is prone to forgetting that. I can't count the times I don't even lock the car. The car is no longer on my mind; I'm at my destination so travelling things are done. The car is there to serve me, not the other way around.

Monkeh:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pm ---Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

--- End quote ---

And for some it's like not being allowed to charge nightly but having to take your phone to an Apple Store half an hour out of your way and wait three hours until it's charged.
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 21, 2022, 08:30:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm ---Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement.

--- End quote ---

If you have your own garage space with an L2 EVSE in it, it takes 10-15 seconds every night (at most) and really is a big improvement over going to a gas station once a week or so.  I can't imagine an easier or more convenient way of fueling your car.

--- End quote ---

Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 07:52:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 07:44:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 01:46:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 21, 2022, 01:39:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 21, 2022, 12:12:12 pm ---Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
--- End quote ---
50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.


--- End quote ---
Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

--- End quote ---

I'd like to see those numbers.  But real numbers, not made up stuff.

If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE.  It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.

--- End quote ---
If you factor in pollution like NOx and SO2 (the stuff that makes humans sick) then the hybrids wins hands down. I have posted the calculations a long time ago. Even with relatively clean electricity in the Netherlands, a BEV emits 5 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid.
--- End quote ---

Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers.  I don't believe for a minute that a hybrid can be lower pollution than a BEV.  I'm sure that's why you didn't post actual data rather than just a claim.



--- Quote ---And hybrids address the CO2 problem for sure.
--- End quote ---

Yes, by emitting CO2, lots of it.



--- Quote ---As long as BEVs compensate non-hybrid ICE car sales AND electricity used for production and driving isn't 100% renewable, BEVs do nothing for CO2 reduction.
--- End quote ---

LOL  I don't know what to make of you.  A hybrid, is just a slightly more efficient than a standard ICE because of the small advantages (~30%) of adding the electric motor and battery.  So it produces around 2/3 the pollutants of an ICE.  Then you claim a BEV achieves zero improvement over an ICE simply because some of the electricity is derived from fossil fuels.  You clearly have not looked at any of the data.  BEVs are so much more efficient than ICE, that the overall process uses around a third of the energy as ICE.  Large power plants are much easier to clean up than small car engines.  Where in this process does the BEV lose all these gains?



--- Quote ---Don't forget that BEVs have a much larger CO2 footprint due to production as well.
--- End quote ---


Another falsehood.  There is a very small difference in CO2 emitted during fabrication of ICE and BEV.  This falsehood comes from looking solely at the battery, rather than comparing the cars. Further, this requires the fabrication to be run from fossil fuels, which some factories don't.  Tesla Nevada factory uses large solar arrays for much of their energy and they plan to do the same in Berlin and Texas. 



--- Quote ---You need to drive around 150k km to break even compared to a regular ICE car.
--- End quote ---

More BS.  It's more like 10k to 15k miles. 



--- Quote ---With an efficient hybrid the BEV is likely to lose
--- End quote ---

"likely"???  You mean you have no idea.  I already know that.



--- Quote ---(which is why you never see hybrids mentioned in CO2 comparisons between BEV / ICE). In China BEVs are an environmental dissaster compared to hybrids due to the amount of coal fired power plants. Toyota has already shown that reduction of CO2 emission is possible without selling any BEVs... All easy to verify information.
--- End quote ---

Please show us the links.



--- Quote ---I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

--- End quote ---

Wireless charging means you don't need to spend 10 seconds plugging and unplugging a connector.  LOL  You must be one lazy dude!
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 21, 2022, 08:30:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 21, 2022, 07:44:55 pm ---Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

--- End quote ---
Yes, and owning an electric car now will feel like having an iPhone 2G when the 5 comes out. Solid state lithium, twice the range from the same battery, no fire.

--- End quote ---

Compared to driving an ICE in the meantime, I guess that would be the phone on the wall with the hand crank???  "Hello, Thelma?  Connect me to Betty Lou, please!"

When will the solid state batteries be available for sale?  I mean, which decade? 
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