Author Topic: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...  (Read 56600 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #375 on: August 21, 2022, 08:42:07 pm »
I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

Ok, we get it.  You don't like EVs.  But, really, complaining about plugging one in is a bit like complaining about having to press the brake now and then.  Compared to the overall action of driving a car it really seems pretty bloody minimal!
I don't don't like BEVs; you are absolutely wrong about that. I do want a new car to be an improvement though. It would be better if the car didn't need any meddling at all. Driving a car is already something from the stone age (especially with a manual gearbox -looking forward to driving an automatic hybrid-). I want less meddling, not more. Again, plugging in/out all the time and messing with (wet/dirty) wires really isn't an improvement. It is needing more pampering. Especially for someone like me who is prone to forgetting that. I can't count the times I don't even lock the car. The car is no longer on my mind; I'm at my destination so travelling things are done. The car is there to serve me, not the other way around.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2022, 08:48:12 pm by nctnico »
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #376 on: August 21, 2022, 08:49:09 pm »
Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

And for some it's like not being allowed to charge nightly but having to take your phone to an Apple Store half an hour out of your way and wait three hours until it's charged.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #377 on: August 21, 2022, 09:34:01 pm »
Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement.

If you have your own garage space with an L2 EVSE in it, it takes 10-15 seconds every night (at most) and really is a big improvement over going to a gas station once a week or so.  I can't imagine an easier or more convenient way of fueling your car.

Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #378 on: August 21, 2022, 09:54:37 pm »
Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.
50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

I'd like to see those numbers.  But real numbers, not made up stuff.

If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE.  It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.
If you factor in pollution like NOx and SO2 (the stuff that makes humans sick) then the hybrids wins hands down. I have posted the calculations a long time ago. Even with relatively clean electricity in the Netherlands, a BEV emits 5 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid.

Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers.  I don't believe for a minute that a hybrid can be lower pollution than a BEV.  I'm sure that's why you didn't post actual data rather than just a claim.


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And hybrids address the CO2 problem for sure.

Yes, by emitting CO2, lots of it.


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As long as BEVs compensate non-hybrid ICE car sales AND electricity used for production and driving isn't 100% renewable, BEVs do nothing for CO2 reduction.

LOL  I don't know what to make of you.  A hybrid, is just a slightly more efficient than a standard ICE because of the small advantages (~30%) of adding the electric motor and battery.  So it produces around 2/3 the pollutants of an ICE.  Then you claim a BEV achieves zero improvement over an ICE simply because some of the electricity is derived from fossil fuels.  You clearly have not looked at any of the data.  BEVs are so much more efficient than ICE, that the overall process uses around a third of the energy as ICE.  Large power plants are much easier to clean up than small car engines.  Where in this process does the BEV lose all these gains?


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Don't forget that BEVs have a much larger CO2 footprint due to production as well.


Another falsehood.  There is a very small difference in CO2 emitted during fabrication of ICE and BEV.  This falsehood comes from looking solely at the battery, rather than comparing the cars. Further, this requires the fabrication to be run from fossil fuels, which some factories don't.  Tesla Nevada factory uses large solar arrays for much of their energy and they plan to do the same in Berlin and Texas. 


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You need to drive around 150k km to break even compared to a regular ICE car.

More BS.  It's more like 10k to 15k miles. 


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With an efficient hybrid the BEV is likely to lose

"likely"???  You mean you have no idea.  I already know that.


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(which is why you never see hybrids mentioned in CO2 comparisons between BEV / ICE). In China BEVs are an environmental dissaster compared to hybrids due to the amount of coal fired power plants. Toyota has already shown that reduction of CO2 emission is possible without selling any BEVs... All easy to verify information.

Please show us the links.


Quote
I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

Wireless charging means you don't need to spend 10 seconds plugging and unplugging a connector.  LOL  You must be one lazy dude!
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #379 on: August 21, 2022, 09:57:58 pm »
Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.
Yes, and owning an electric car now will feel like having an iPhone 2G when the 5 comes out. Solid state lithium, twice the range from the same battery, no fire.

Compared to driving an ICE in the meantime, I guess that would be the phone on the wall with the hand crank???  "Hello, Thelma?  Connect me to Betty Lou, please!"

When will the solid state batteries be available for sale?  I mean, which decade? 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #380 on: August 21, 2022, 10:01:30 pm »
Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

And for some it's like not being allowed to charge nightly but having to take your phone to an Apple Store half an hour out of your way and wait three hours until it's charged.

And those people can wait until the chargers are installed where they park.  BEVs are happening.  There's no stopping them.  Charging is going to happen because there will be demand for it.  Like everything else on this Earth, if there is demand, there will be supply. 

It's not like everyone can have a BEV right now.  Get in line and wait your turn.  There are a lot of people with more vision who are ready to buy right now.
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #381 on: August 21, 2022, 10:06:56 pm »
Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.

There really is something quite amusing about watching your neighbour hurredly scrape ice off their windscreen as you get into your car, do a single swipe of the windscreen wiper and drive right off... all in a perfectly warm car with all windows demisted.

And in the summer months, I can get into a cool car, it works both ways.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #382 on: August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pm »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #383 on: August 21, 2022, 11:37:55 pm »
Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.

There really is something quite amusing about watching your neighbour hurredly scrape ice off their windscreen as you get into your car, do a single swipe of the windscreen wiper and drive right off... all in a perfectly warm car with all windows demisted.

And in the summer months, I can get into a cool car, it works both ways.

I have a BEV and it's not quite that simple.  You have to take a few seconds to unplug the charging cable and hang it up!  And that's almost every day!!!  God, the tedium!

https://www.chargehanger.com/

At least you can keep it neat.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #384 on: August 21, 2022, 11:39:56 pm »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.

If you can't recoup the price differential of a BEV over 15 years, maybe your mistake is driving!  You clearly drive so little, you should probably just use Uber or public transport.  Some people just shouldn't be driving, I guess.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #385 on: August 22, 2022, 12:19:13 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.

If you can't recoup the price differential of a BEV over 15 years, maybe your mistake is driving!  You clearly drive so little, you should probably just use Uber or public transport.  Some people just shouldn't be driving, I guess.

My mistake is engaging the wilfully ignorant.

Still waiting on your suggestions for the streets I mentioned. tom66's suggestion is great, if only there were more than two feet of pavement and anyone was going to pay to dig up and properly reinstate the entire street to suit. But therein lies the issue: Who's paying to totally rebuild towns and cities? And no, the property owners won't - whether they live there or are renting it out.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 12:27:21 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #386 on: August 22, 2022, 12:22:11 am »
My mistake is engaging the wilfully ignorant.
That appears to be an epidemic in this thread.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #387 on: August 22, 2022, 01:11:39 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #388 on: August 22, 2022, 01:37:38 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.

If you can't recoup the price differential of a BEV over 15 years, maybe your mistake is driving!  You clearly drive so little, you should probably just use Uber or public transport.  Some people just shouldn't be driving, I guess.

My mistake is engaging the wilfully ignorant.

Still waiting on your suggestions for the streets I mentioned. tom66's suggestion is great, if only there were more than two feet of pavement and anyone was going to pay to dig up and properly reinstate the entire street to suit. But therein lies the issue: Who's paying to totally rebuild towns and cities? And no, the property owners won't - whether they live there or are renting it out.

No one.  The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant.  That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII. 

I'm glad you have come to this conclusion.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #389 on: August 22, 2022, 01:40:43 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

Not really.  It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price.  So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar. 

It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up.  In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #390 on: August 22, 2022, 04:31:49 am »
No one.  The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant.  That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII. 

Yes, yes, it is a great shame that the UK doesn't have any hope of keeping up with the achievements of places like Puerto Rico. We only manage to commit 1.2 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, which is shamefully low compared to Puerto Rico's 18.5 - we clearly need to try harder. Perhaps if we work very hard at it we could also emulate your magnificent recent performances at the Summer and Winter Olympics. Sadly we will never, no matter how much effort we put in, match your standing in the Pan American Games as unfortunately we are ineligible to compete. And how could The Royal Ballet hope to compete with the world renown Balleteatro Nacional de Puerto Rico, or the English National Opera, Glynebourne, The Proms, the Royal Festival Hall, the Globe or the Royal Shakespeare Company or any of the piddling theatres and concert halls of London, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Birmingham and other little provincial cities even get a look in when compared to the dazzling array of arts venues of Puerto Rico, world famous as they are.

I realise that Puerto Rico's massive EV fleet of 690 vehicles in 2020 makes a resident of the country an obvious and natural expert on the subject, but perhaps you could show a little humility and not constantly flaunt the natural intellectual superiority of Puerto Ricans (as evidenced by the stellar number of Nobel Prizes awarded to inhabitants compared to the UK's embarrassing figure of only 138) in front of the rest of us. Similarly, shaming the rest of us with the whole 11 public charge points in a Puerto Rico that show up on chargemap.com is just being needlessly boastful, and leaves those of us in countries like the UK with a mere 33,281 public charge points showing up on Zap Map feeling embarrassed and ashamed of our mere 520,000 BEVs on the road.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #391 on: August 22, 2022, 05:07:53 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

Not really.  It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price.  So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar. 

It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up.  In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.

In my case it's now been 24 months owning an EV and it's done 32,000km.
An ICE car at say 8L/100km would use 1280 litres/year and at say $1.80/L that would cost me about $2300 in petrol per year. 10 years is $23,000, not including inflation related or oil market related cost increases of petrol, or maintenance. Not including reduction in home electricity cost. And I agree it's a given that the cost of petrol is very unlikely to drop.
EV's (and solar), from financial perspective are about paying a lot more up front now, for less ongoing cost in the future. But then you also have to factor in the desired longevity of the car and possble battery refurbishment costs.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #392 on: August 22, 2022, 06:14:54 am »
Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.

I'm not judging, but these luxuries use energy, and as long as not all energy comes from "renewables" it counteracts the whole purpose of the changeover to a BEV. Sure ICE owners turn on the engine to heat the windshield and warm the car before they start driving, which is also very bad. I make it a habit to first do what is needed to prepare for driving and start the car when ready to take of. Already did so when I was still working. Just put on a pair of gloves and use a good scraper to clear the windshield.

Furthermore it shows the big flaw in the whole idea of counteracting the human impact on nature. The human race should reduce consumption of especially energy in the fight against climate change. But what we do is just the opposite. Sure I have build myself a big house I keep warm in winter, but don't need to cool in summer. Like to play the no children card here :)

Read SiliconWizard his post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/why-no-dodgy-quantum-entanglement-technology/msg4372342/#msg4372342 It reflects what I'm saying.

The whole energy transition thing is still aimed at a growing and not stabilizing economy. People are very concerned about the environment and climate change and sooth their conscience with owning a BEV, installing solar panels, switching to green energy and recycling, but it should not impact their lives to the extend that they can't have three vacations a year or what other luxuries they enjoy.

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #393 on: August 22, 2022, 08:44:54 am »
No one.  The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant.  That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII. 

Yes, yes, it is a great shame that the UK doesn't have any hope of keeping up with the achievements of places like Puerto Rico.

Exactly.  It's not about ability, it's about mindset.  We are limited by what we think we can do.

Oh, and if you are going to dis a group, you might at least learn something about them.  For starters, Puerto Rico is not a country.  It's a US territory.  So all your negative BS is misplaced.  Compare the Nobel Prize winners of the US to the UK.  400 vs the not even close 138 for the second place UK.  Yeah, that is embarrassing for you

Why are you being so petty?  I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm.  So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs.  It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done.  There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out.  I guess it will take a while to find that one person.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #394 on: August 22, 2022, 08:52:35 am »
There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

Not really.  It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price.  So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar. 

It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up.  In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.

In my case it's now been 24 months owning an EV and it's done 32,000km.
An ICE car at say 8L/100km would use 1280 litres/year and at say $1.80/L that would cost me about $2300 in petrol per year. 10 years is $23,000, not including inflation related or oil market related cost increases of petrol, or maintenance. Not including reduction in home electricity cost. And I agree it's a given that the cost of petrol is very unlikely to drop.
EV's (and solar), from financial perspective are about paying a lot more up front now, for less ongoing cost in the future. But then you also have to factor in the desired longevity of the car and possble battery refurbishment costs.

You seem to understand some of the issues.  But please keep in mind that there's today's situation, but BEV prices will be dropping.  Just in the last year, both Nissan and GM have dropped the prices of their BEVs to under $30,000US.  In GM's case, they may be treating it as a loss leader because of their battery debacle. 

My point is, while today, BEVs are only cheaper after accounting for a decade or two of operational cost savings, they will be dropping in price, so that in 10 years, when nearly all new cars are BEVs, they will be on price parity with ICE.  Then it is all savings from day one, forward.
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #395 on: August 22, 2022, 08:58:24 am »
Why are you being so petty?  I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm.  So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs.  It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done.  There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out.  I guess it will take a while to find that one person.

I think you're being a little unfair to the UK, frankly.   I would argue the US is more opposed to electric vehicles with their obsession over massive trucks/SUVs, driving to places that most people walk/cycle to and insistence that a vehicle is impractical unless it can drive 1,000 miles in a day non stop.   PR is a small territory, you can easily cross from one side to another on a single charge with almost every EV made today, so your view of how accepted electric vehicles are may be influenced by that. 

The UK has a well-developed charging network, a large number of charging companies based in the UK which have expanded into Europe, and equipment manufacturers and suppliers.  We have a factory that is supposed to be building new EV batteries (we'll see if it takes off), Nissan makes the Leaf for Europe & UK here, the plug-in hybrid-electric London taxi (100km all electric range) is made in Birmingham, UK and we've got a few EV startups too (ARRIVAL is the big one having recently won a contract to supply Royal Mail with custom built EV vans.) 

Engineers in general, which is predominantly the membership base of this forum, seem to have a very luddite-like view of the world and seem to be very opposed to change.  This is not just in relation to EVs, it's things like smartphones, "the cloud", heck I've even seen an argument here where a chap was insistent that his Ni-Cad drill was better than a new Li-Ion one because he can leave the battery at 0% for a year and it'll still work.  Never mind the fact it can do half the torque and half the work before going flat.

Of the EE friends I know, only about two or three are actively interested in electric vehicles.  Most are on the fence and a few are opposed in similar ways to several of the posters might be here. 

I imagine it will begin to shift over time, nothing changes overnight.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #396 on: August 22, 2022, 09:00:13 am »
Why are you being so petty?  I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm.  So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs.  It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done.  There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out.  I guess it will take a while to find that one person.

I think you're being a little unfair to the UK, frankly. 
Don't feed the troll.
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #397 on: August 22, 2022, 09:01:03 am »
I'm not judging, but these luxuries use energy, and as long as not all energy comes from "renewables" it counteracts the whole purpose of the changeover to a BEV.

That's not realistic.  We use energy in many ways, for creature comfort.  The fact that it is tied to using a car doesn't make it counterproductive to have a BEV. 


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Sure ICE owners turn on the engine to heat the windshield and warm the car before they start driving, which is also very bad. I make it a habit to first do what is needed to prepare for driving and start the car when ready to take of. Already did so when I was still working. Just put on a pair of gloves and use a good scraper to clear the windshield.

Exactly!  I know someone who warms the car for 15 minutes or so, so the kids don't have to sit in a cold car.  Some people do, some people don't.  I use seat and steering wheel warmers. 


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Furthermore it shows the big flaw in the whole idea of counteracting the human impact on nature.

Which is an unachievable goal.  It's not possible, so where do we draw the line? 

The point of BEVs is to eliminate carbon emissions.  This will require renewable energy, but that is doable.  With ICE, it will never happen.


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The human race should reduce consumption of especially energy in the fight against climate change. But what we do is just the opposite. Sure I have build myself a big house I keep warm in winter, but don't need to cool in summer. Like to play the no children card here :)

Sorry, there are no cards, because there is no game.


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Read SiliconWizard his post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/why-no-dodgy-quantum-entanglement-technology/msg4372342/#msg4372342 It reflects what I'm saying.

The whole energy transition thing is still aimed at a growing and not stabilizing economy. People are very concerned about the environment and climate change and sooth their conscience with owning a BEV, installing solar panels, switching to green energy and recycling, but it should not impact their lives to the extend that they can't have three vacations a year or what other luxuries they enjoy.

We don't actually have to reduce our energy footprint, just the pollution it creates.  It's not about "conscience".  It's about doing something useful that is practical, NOW (or at least, soon).
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #398 on: August 22, 2022, 09:02:55 am »
I'm not judging, but these luxuries use energy, and as long as not all energy comes from "renewables" it counteracts the whole purpose of the changeover to a BEV. Sure ICE owners turn on the engine to heat the windshield and warm the car before they start driving, which is also very bad. I make it a habit to first do what is needed to prepare for driving and start the car when ready to take of. Already did so when I was still working. Just put on a pair of gloves and use a good scraper to clear the windshield.

I metered how much energy pre-heating my car uses.  It's about 2.3kW for 20 minutes, or less than 1kWh.  That's ~4 miles of driving. 

The alternative is a diesel/petrol car idling with a cold engine warming the cabin up whilst the owner scrapes off the window. 

Yes it's possibly more energy than driving a completely cold car but we are allowed some luxuries!

edit: though driving a completely cold engine car may have other negative effects, most cars run open-loop when cold not knowing catalyst performance etc. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 09:07:21 am by tom66 »
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #399 on: August 22, 2022, 09:15:15 am »
Oh, and if you are going to dis a group, you might at least learn something about them.  For starters, Puerto Rico is not a country.  It's a US territory.  So all your negative BS is misplaced.  Compare the Nobel Prize winners of the US to the UK.  400 vs the not even close 138 for the second place UK.  Yeah, that is embarrassing for you

Why are you being so petty?  I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm.  So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs.  It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done.  There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out.  I guess it will take a while to find that one person.

Go and check your history. The founders of America, came from Europe. Without this movements of Europeans across the globe who knows what the state of America would be today. Maybe a nice place with lots of nature not spoiled by greedy humans. Same story applies to Australia. Basically founded by the English.

So by pissing on the UK so much, you are pissing on your ancestors :-DD


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