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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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Cerebus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:37:38 am ---No one.  The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant.  That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII. 

--- End quote ---

Yes, yes, it is a great shame that the UK doesn't have any hope of keeping up with the achievements of places like Puerto Rico. We only manage to commit 1.2 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, which is shamefully low compared to Puerto Rico's 18.5 - we clearly need to try harder. Perhaps if we work very hard at it we could also emulate your magnificent recent performances at the Summer and Winter Olympics. Sadly we will never, no matter how much effort we put in, match your standing in the Pan American Games as unfortunately we are ineligible to compete. And how could The Royal Ballet hope to compete with the world renown Balleteatro Nacional de Puerto Rico, or the English National Opera, Glynebourne, The Proms, the Royal Festival Hall, the Globe or the Royal Shakespeare Company or any of the piddling theatres and concert halls of London, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Birmingham and other little provincial cities even get a look in when compared to the dazzling array of arts venues of Puerto Rico, world famous as they are.

I realise that Puerto Rico's massive EV fleet of 690 vehicles in 2020 makes a resident of the country an obvious and natural expert on the subject, but perhaps you could show a little humility and not constantly flaunt the natural intellectual superiority of Puerto Ricans (as evidenced by the stellar number of Nobel Prizes awarded to inhabitants compared to the UK's embarrassing figure of only 138) in front of the rest of us. Similarly, shaming the rest of us with the whole 11 public charge points in a Puerto Rico that show up on chargemap.com is just being needlessly boastful, and leaves those of us in countries like the UK with a mere 33,281 public charge points showing up on Zap Map feeling embarrassed and ashamed of our mere 520,000 BEVs on the road.

EEVblog:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:40:43 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 22, 2022, 01:11:39 am ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 10:01:30 pm ---There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

--- End quote ---
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
--- End quote ---
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

--- End quote ---

Not really.  It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price.  So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar. 

It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up.  In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.

--- End quote ---

In my case it's now been 24 months owning an EV and it's done 32,000km.
An ICE car at say 8L/100km would use 1280 litres/year and at say $1.80/L that would cost me about $2300 in petrol per year. 10 years is $23,000, not including inflation related or oil market related cost increases of petrol, or maintenance. Not including reduction in home electricity cost. And I agree it's a given that the cost of petrol is very unlikely to drop.
EV's (and solar), from financial perspective are about paying a lot more up front now, for less ongoing cost in the future. But then you also have to factor in the desired longevity of the car and possble battery refurbishment costs.
pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 21, 2022, 09:34:01 pm ---Also when it's plugged in you can take advantage of the electrically driven climate control system to pre-condition your car for a particular departure time without using up any of your battery charge (well, you can on mine anyway). In the recent unseasonably hot weather in the UK that's something I've been very pleased to have; more than pleased, smug in fact. No doubt I'll be equally pleased, and smug, if we have anything that looks like a winter this year - interior warm, any frost melted off and a toasty warm seat for my backside.

--- End quote ---

I'm not judging, but these luxuries use energy, and as long as not all energy comes from "renewables" it counteracts the whole purpose of the changeover to a BEV. Sure ICE owners turn on the engine to heat the windshield and warm the car before they start driving, which is also very bad. I make it a habit to first do what is needed to prepare for driving and start the car when ready to take of. Already did so when I was still working. Just put on a pair of gloves and use a good scraper to clear the windshield.

Furthermore it shows the big flaw in the whole idea of counteracting the human impact on nature. The human race should reduce consumption of especially energy in the fight against climate change. But what we do is just the opposite. Sure I have build myself a big house I keep warm in winter, but don't need to cool in summer. Like to play the no children card here :)

Read SiliconWizard his post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/why-no-dodgy-quantum-entanglement-technology/msg4372342/#msg4372342 It reflects what I'm saying.

The whole energy transition thing is still aimed at a growing and not stabilizing economy. People are very concerned about the environment and climate change and sooth their conscience with owning a BEV, installing solar panels, switching to green energy and recycling, but it should not impact their lives to the extend that they can't have three vacations a year or what other luxuries they enjoy.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 22, 2022, 04:31:49 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:37:38 am ---No one.  The UK will forever be hopelessly out of date and irrelevant.  That has been the path forward in the UK since the end of WWII. 

--- End quote ---

Yes, yes, it is a great shame that the UK doesn't have any hope of keeping up with the achievements of places like Puerto Rico.
--- End quote ---

Exactly.  It's not about ability, it's about mindset.  We are limited by what we think we can do.

Oh, and if you are going to dis a group, you might at least learn something about them.  For starters, Puerto Rico is not a country.  It's a US territory.  So all your negative BS is misplaced.  Compare the Nobel Prize winners of the US to the UK.  400 vs the not even close 138 for the second place UK.  Yeah, that is embarrassing for you. 

Why are you being so petty?  I was simply trying to make a point with sarcasm.  So many people from the UK have such a defeatist attitude about BEVs.  It makes me wonder how the UK ever got anything done.  There has to be someone in the UK that can figure it out.  I guess it will take a while to find that one person.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 22, 2022, 05:07:53 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 01:40:43 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on August 22, 2022, 01:11:39 am ---
--- Quote from: Monkeh on August 21, 2022, 10:56:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 21, 2022, 10:01:30 pm ---There are a lot of people with more vision privilege who are ready to buy right now.

--- End quote ---
You know, I have plenty of vision, and a drive.. and absolutely no way to recoup the cost of even a second hand BEV within the next 10-15 years.

It's amazing how there are situations which differ from yours.
--- End quote ---
Even without parking/charging access issues, BEVs dont stack up economically for many countries/use cases. Without subsidies and/or fleet/average fuel economy requirements (Australia as an example) BEVs are not cost competitive. Looking out 10-15 years requires a guess/bet on future energy prices, so is very hard to make any certain predictions.

--- End quote ---

Not really.  It is extremely unlikely that solar will increase in price.  So if nothing else, you can cap your electric costs by installing solar. 

It is a safe bet that gasoline prices will go up.  In 20 years, when there are barely any ICE left on the roads, the gasoline infrastructure will be largely dismantled and gas will both be very hard to find, and very expensive.

--- End quote ---

In my case it's now been 24 months owning an EV and it's done 32,000km.
An ICE car at say 8L/100km would use 1280 litres/year and at say $1.80/L that would cost me about $2300 in petrol per year. 10 years is $23,000, not including inflation related or oil market related cost increases of petrol, or maintenance. Not including reduction in home electricity cost. And I agree it's a given that the cost of petrol is very unlikely to drop.
EV's (and solar), from financial perspective are about paying a lot more up front now, for less ongoing cost in the future. But then you also have to factor in the desired longevity of the car and possble battery refurbishment costs.

--- End quote ---

You seem to understand some of the issues.  But please keep in mind that there's today's situation, but BEV prices will be dropping.  Just in the last year, both Nissan and GM have dropped the prices of their BEVs to under $30,000US.  In GM's case, they may be treating it as a loss leader because of their battery debacle. 

My point is, while today, BEVs are only cheaper after accounting for a decade or two of operational cost savings, they will be dropping in price, so that in 10 years, when nearly all new cars are BEVs, they will be on price parity with ICE.  Then it is all savings from day one, forward.
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