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| Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... |
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| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 04:48:01 pm ---@gnuarm: The EU already has limits for the average CO2 emissions for all cars sold per manufacturer. Toyota is the only manufacturer meeting the requirement without needing to sell BEVs to compensate because they are the only manufacturer that actually foresaw the future right (and develop hybrid cars). The rest of the manufacturers just screems 'jobs get lost if you add more regulations!' and hope the politicians will swing their way. In the end that isn't going to hold up. And no, you can't leave it to consumers! People say they like to take action but the reality is that they would like to see other people take action. The government needs to be the driving force behind making cars more efficient and more clean while keeping mobility affordable. Small cars get more rare as well (at least in the EU). Manufacturers are pulling out of this market because the margins are too thin. 10 years ago you could buy a car for 8000 euro. Nowadays the same car costs twice as much due to stricter safety regulations and emission requirements. For example: Citroen and Renault used to have a tiny car but they don't sell it any longer. Fuel taxes aren't the answer either. This has been tried in the NL and it doesn't work. Only drives up inflation. So the NL government is taxing purchase prices of cars based on fuel consumption. For some cars that tax is several times the price of the car (a Lada Niva with a list price of 12k euro ends up costing 47k euro including taxes). --- End quote --- Ok, I guess we are all doomed! |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 04:57:43 pm ---The EU regs seem pretty effective if the goal is electrification of vehicle fleets. We wouldn't have the ID.3 without dieselgate fines and EU regulations. So I think it's still a good thing that they're there. And hybrids are a technology that is going to rapidly die out as larger capacity EV batteries become more common. 58kWh is standard in the ID.3, prior to the chip shortage that was a 26,000 GBP car, not much more than a standard Golf of similar trim. That battery will do over 200 miles. I doubt that most people will pay a lot extra to avoid one charging stop, but we'll see. --- End quote --- Hybrids and BEVs are completely different animals. Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero! Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pm ---Again, you are not counting in public charging costs which make BEVs an uneconomic choice for many. Hybrids will be here to stay for the next several decades in larger numbers compared to BEVs simply because hybrids are more economic to drive in. --- End quote --- Not really my experience. Even the most expensive public charging has been cheaper than petrol here. And of course if you can charge at home on your drive or similar you can take advantage of very cheap domestic rates in the off peak. Even with the current energy hikes I'm still paying about 2 pence per mile for my PHEV when on electric - that's around 8x cheaper than petrol is per mile. What we need is more 'slow charging' infrastructure for people parking on streets, it's just as vital as rapid chargers to enable mass EV adoption. And these chargers would incentivise overnight charging for those who don't need priority charging. --- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pm ---Rest assured that public charging prices will go up when the investors in charging infrastructure (none of them is making a profit at this moment!) start wanting to see return on their investment. After that governments will step in to regulate prices. [...] --- End quote --- Like all markets, there will be an inflection point at which competition and demand keeps prices low. Your argument makes no sense, as otherwise petrol stations could charge as much as they like. For Ionity for instance you can already get a membership with e.g. Bonnet EV which gets rates at under 40p/kWh, not much more than a domestic daytime electric tariff right now costs. I think these membership schemes will end up being part of your domestic energy tariff eventually, you will pay for home and away electricity from the same provider. |
| gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 05:02:14 pm ---Again, you are not counting in public charging costs which make BEVs an uneconomic choice for many. Hybrids will be here to stay for the next several decades in larger numbers compared to BEVs simply because hybrids are more economic to drive in. --- End quote --- Even when charging a pay chargers, BEVs save a lot of money compared to gas. In reality, BEVs are not about saving money. That's just a nice side effect. What is important is eliminating carbon emissions. It is essential, in fact. That's why we also need to invest heavily in renewable energy sources to complete the process. Hybrids will NEVER do anything but slightly reduce carbon emissions, which is ENTIRELY pointless. --- Quote ---Rest assured that public charging prices will go up when the investors in charging infrastructure (none of them is making a profit at this moment!) start wanting to see return on their investment. After that governments will step in to regulate prices. Just look at how mobile phone operators used to charge an arm & leg for certain services and now got clamped down by governments to charge fair amounts for their services. --- End quote --- Cell phone providers are regulated??? I think you need to check again. Well, maybe you are someplace other than the US. I only know about the US. BEV charging is not very expensive. Mostly it is done at home. With time, every apartment, condo and detached home will provide charging at nominal rates, or even include it as part of the overall cost, just like parking. Average miles driven is 40 or 10 kWh. In the US, that mostly ranges between less than a dollar, to $2.50 per day. It's not going to break anyone. They can raise the rent $50 a month and you'll save $150 a month on gas. |
| nctnico:
@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm. And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs. Fuel from oil isn't going away overnight so franticly going after electric cars and trying to shoehorn BEVs as a universal solution isn't going to work. There is a market segment for which BEVs work well at this point in time. For the remaining market, hybrids are currently the best solution. Looking at the trends, hydrogen looks to become the new oil so who knows what the future will bring. It might as well be that BEVs go away and cars will move towards FCEVs (fuel cell -typically hydrogen powered- electric vehicle). Even today a FCEV would be more economic to drive compared to a BEV when needing to rely on public charging. |
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