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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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gnuarm:

--- Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:14:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:12:56 pm ---Sorry, I missed that it is a hybrid.  I don't have much enthusiasm for hybrids.  They don't solve any problems, other than making ICE cheaper to run.

That's something people say that makes no sense to me.  It's not an EV, it just uses a battery and electric motor to improve mileage.  It doesn't have the same advantages or disadvantages. 
--- End quote ---

I don't know if you actually understand what a PHEV *is*.

The best way to think of a PHEV is like a battery-electric vehicle that can run on petrol when the battery is flat.  That is why I say it is like training wheels.  You get slowly more used to electric mobility.  Working out how to schedule your charging times, finding public chargers, optimising efficiency for EV driving.
--- End quote ---
 

That's the part that makes no sense to me.  You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV.  None of this is rocket science.  Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time.  People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging.  They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline.  This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV.  It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV.  It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.



--- Quote ---That kind of thing.  My PHEV offsets some 80% of emissions because the petrol engine *simply never runs for those miles*.   When it is running on petrol, you get some efficiency benefits from being electrically-assisted, e.g. my car only has a 1.4L engine but is almost as fast as the comparable model with a 2.0L engine, which means less drag and higher load factors.  But that's relatively minor compared to pure EV benefits.


--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 08:12:56 pm ---
--- Quote ---As for Ni-Cads, no doubt at all that a Li-Ion power tool battery will outperform on current output.  My drill battery is fist sized and can do 30 amps without cutting out, at 18V.  That's over 500W peak power.  You are not getting that from Ni-Cads.

--- End quote ---

You mean the density?  Yeah, that's true.  But I've never seen a battery power tool that lacked in power.  I would still be using my NiCd Makita, but I'm not paying nearly as much for a new battery as I would for a new drill.

--- End quote ---

Both energy and power density are improved, the drill can do more torque and it can supply that torque for longer before needing a battery charge.

--- End quote ---

Ok, so from the school of if some is good, and more is better, then too much is just enough!  That was my point.  My Makita drill had all the power needed from NiCds.  Lithium ions would not improve that since there is no need for unlimited power.   It's a hand tool.  At some point I can't hold onto it.
tom66:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pm ---That's the part that makes no sense to me.  You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV.  None of this is rocket science.  Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time.  People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging.  They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline.  This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV.  It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV.  It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.

--- End quote ---

Well, you live in a country that is just over 100km across, whereas I'm in a country where a holiday is easily 500-600km so I think perspectives vary.  You do need to consider fast charging if you live in the UK.  A PHEV eliminates that hassle.  You can do shorter journeys, like your commute on electricity alone but longer trips require little or no planning, as long as you have petrol you can just... go.

At the time I bought my PHEV the only other EV option in my price range was the BMW i3 94Ah which had roughly 100 mile all electric range.  I would not have made much impact to my overall electric usage (maybe gone from 80% to 100% electric) but had the inconvenience of a short range EV with slow fast charging (~38kW max for the i3) making road tripping a pain.  Keep in mind we own a single car, so we don't have the option to own a short range EV and a diesel car or something like some families do.

Now, today, there are many better options, if you can buy them, like the VW ID.3 which have 100kW+ fast charging and 300km+ range so the 'hassle' factor drops to close to zero if you have home charging.

I would argue that anyone buying a brand new PHEV (with a few limited exceptions) is making a mistake but used PHEVs are bloody good bargains.

sokoloff:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:14:43 pm ---The best way to think of a PHEV is like a battery-electric vehicle that can run on petrol when the battery is flat.  That is why I say it is like training wheels.  You get slowly more used to electric mobility.  Working out how to schedule your charging times, finding public chargers, optimising efficiency for EV driving.
--- End quote ---
  That's the part that makes no sense to me.  You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV.  None of this is rocket science.  Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time.  People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging.  They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline.  This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV.  It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV.  It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.
--- End quote ---
That seems to be majorly discounting the flexibility that the PHEV offers. If you're in a situation where charging is easy and convenient and you're driving the typical short amount per day, it gives you a lot of the benefits of the BEV. If you're in a situation where charging isn't easy or where you have a particularly long day of driving, it's still able to accomplish that without any fuss or inconvenience relative to a normal ICE car.

It allows someone to buy a PHEV, expecting to own it 7-10 years, without knowing in advance their exact parking/charging/garaging situation.

Flexibility has value, especially in this case. Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.
nctnico:
Agreed. Having a charging plug on a hybrid makes a lot of sense.
bdunham7:

--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pm ---Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.

--- End quote ---

Same here.  I don't understand how combining the features of a BEV and ICE/hybrid into a long-range PHEV make it somehow worse than a separate BEV and ICE. 
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