General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:41:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pm ---That's the part that makes no sense to me. You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV. None of this is rocket science. Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time. People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging. They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline. This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV. It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV. It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.
--- End quote ---
Well, you live in a country that is just over 100km across, whereas I'm in a country where a holiday is easily 500-600km so I think perspectives vary. You do need to consider fast charging if you live in the UK. A PHEV eliminates that hassle. You can do shorter journeys, like your commute on electricity alone but longer trips require little or no planning, as long as you have petrol you can just... go.
--- End quote ---
You don't know me. I live in many places. My BEV is, at this moment, in the parking lot at BWI near Baltimore, MD. I live in a country that is 3,000 miles wide as much as an island, which is NOT a country, but is 100 miles long. As soon as I land in Maryland, I will have to drive 125 miles back to my place in Virginia and a few days later drive 125 miles to Lynchburg where they are assembling my product for shipment, then back. Then a few days later, 125 miles back to the airport.
So you know nothing of my "perspective".
You also don't understand a word I wrote.
--- Quote ---At the time I bought my PHEV the only other EV option in my price range was the BMW i3 94Ah which had roughly 100 mile all electric range. I would not have made much impact to my overall electric usage (maybe gone from 80% to 100% electric) but had the inconvenience of a short range EV with slow fast charging (~38kW max for the i3) making road tripping a pain. Keep in mind we own a single car, so we don't have the option to own a short range EV and a diesel car or something like some families do.
Now, today, there are many better options, if you can buy them, like the VW ID.3 which have 100kW+ fast charging and 300km+ range so the 'hassle' factor drops to close to zero if you have home charging.
I would argue that anyone buying a brand new PHEV (with a few limited exceptions) is making a mistake but used PHEVs are bloody good bargains.
--- End quote ---
You are free to buy what you wish. The comments you are responding to, and rather inappropriately, were about how PHEVs are NOT "bridge" vehicles or "training wheels" for BEVs in any way. I don't think I've ever said what anyone should or should not buy. I'm only pointing out that PHEVs are not a useful component of our transition to BEVs. They are orthogonal to the matter.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 09:32:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 22, 2022, 09:14:43 pm ---The best way to think of a PHEV is like a battery-electric vehicle that can run on petrol when the battery is flat. That is why I say it is like training wheels. You get slowly more used to electric mobility. Working out how to schedule your charging times, finding public chargers, optimising efficiency for EV driving.
--- End quote ---
That's the part that makes no sense to me. You don't need to undergo training wheels for a BEV. None of this is rocket science. Also, most PHEVs don't use level 3 charging, only level 1 and 2 which take time. People don't want to wait around for that, so not much use of public charging. They will mostly either just charge at home, or not charge at all and run off gasoline. This is why a PHEV is not at all like a BEV. It has many of the disadvantages of an ICE vehicle and few of the advantages of a BEV. It is it's own animal, which takes getting used to, in ways that are different from BEVs.
--- End quote ---
That seems to be majorly discounting the flexibility that the PHEV offers. If you're in a situation where charging is easy and convenient and you're driving the typical short amount per day, it gives you a lot of the benefits of the BEV. If you're in a situation where charging isn't easy or where you have a particularly long day of driving, it's still able to accomplish that without any fuss or inconvenience relative to a normal ICE car.
It allows someone to buy a PHEV, expecting to own it 7-10 years, without knowing in advance their exact parking/charging/garaging situation.
Flexibility has value, especially in this case. Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.
--- End quote ---
I'm unclear about your post. I have said nothing disparaging of the value of driving a PHEV. I'm simply pointing out that they are completely unrelated to the process of converting to BEVs. The two are not related.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 22, 2022, 10:49:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pm ---Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.
--- End quote ---
Same here. I don't understand how combining the features of a BEV and ICE/hybrid into a long-range PHEV make it somehow worse than a separate BEV and ICE.
--- End quote ---
The battery pack will be extra weight you drag around making the ICE more inefficient. IMHO having a PHEV with relatively large batteries makes most sense if a significant part of what you are driving can be done using the batteries AND if you have a cheap source for charging. Otherwise it is not worth having the larger batteries. If you care about cost then it certainly is good to fill in a spreadsheet to calculate optimal TCO.
sokoloff:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 22, 2022, 11:12:25 pm ---I'm simply pointing out that [PHEVs] are completely unrelated to the process of converting to BEVs. The two are not related.
--- End quote ---
In order for EVs to be bought, they have to be considered. In order for them to be considered, they have to have awareness.
I know many people who now have a BEV as a result of them or a friend having bought a PHEV (Volts in this case) and realizing “hey, that plug-in thing is pretty cool!”
I can’t help but see that chain of human awareness to consideration to purchase as being part of the adoption path from pure ICE to BEVs.
Cerebus:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 22, 2022, 10:49:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: sokoloff on August 22, 2022, 09:46:55 pm ---Our daily drivers right now are a BEV and an ICE. When it comes time to replace the ICE, we're almost surely going to replace it with a used PHEV, for the flexibility reasons listed above.
--- End quote ---
Same here. I don't understand how combining the features of a BEV and ICE/hybrid into a long-range PHEV make it somehow worse than a separate BEV and ICE.
--- End quote ---
Well, if you're thinking like an engineer then the combination allows you to take advantage of the best qualities of both, at the cost of some increased complexity. Of course if you've caught religion, then you'll battle for your corner while disparaging the other corner and burn any heretics who think there might be a middle ground between the two. It doesn't matter whether the religion in question is mainstream "Petrolhead" or mainstream "BEV" or a small spinoff sect like Tesla drivers, they all hate heretics.
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