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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

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emece67:
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bdunham7:

--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm ---Even today a FCEV would be more economic to drive compared to a BEV when needing to rely on public charging.

--- End quote ---

If your 'public' EV charging is actually a privately owned for-profit enterprise while the H2 stations are highly subsidized, then that is probably true.  But the problem is easily solved by making the public charging universal and free, or else subsidizing at least the delivery systems so that the end user pays roughly the cost of the electricity.  Gas-hybrids wouldn't work very well either if there weren't fuel stations.

b/t/w, how many H2 stations are there in the EU?

tom66:
FCEV is not cheaper - that's bollox.

Hydrogen at a filling station is £14 per kilogram[1], about the same in EU, if you can find somewhere to refuel.

And you can't refuel at home, so you had better live somewhere near a refuelling station - but let's pretend you do and you don't mind the inconvenience of this - unlike at least with petrol where the infrastructure is common.

A Mirai is rated around 60 miles per kg, so one mile will cost 23p.   In euros, roughly 28 cents.  Average UK petrol price is £1.75/L right now and a typical car might get 50 mpg or about 4.7L/100km so the same distance on petrol is about £8.20 - 75% the cost of hydrogen even considering the inflated cost.  A diesel car might push 60 mpg, 3.9L/100km (~£1.90/L around here right now) = £7.41 for the same journey.    If it's an EV, getting 3.5 miles per kWh, the cost-parity with hydrogen is only reached at a fast charger costing 80p/kWh, and with diesel around 43p/kWh.  Ionity charges up to 69p/kWh for non-members, but as mentioned before which you so conveniently ignore, most people do not pay this.  The average rate is closer to 40p/kWh.   That's *still cheaper* than diesel for an entirely unusual scenario of no AC charging and no home charging.

So even relying purely on fast-dc charging, the BEV is half the price of the FCEV.  If it can be charged at home (which roughly 50% of people can do with just a home charger install) then the BEV is around 1/10 to 1/20th the cost and with no inconvenience of having to find fuel all the time, petrol or hydrogen.

[1] https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill (US price, but it should be cheaper than the UK)

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 10:24:44 pm ---If it can be charged at home

--- End quote ---

I think that is one of the two real questions for most people, the other being the cost of a car.  Even in todays inflated market, you can find (here at least) a decent used car for $10-12K that will go 500 miles between trips to Costco for gas.  A BEV with home charging eliminates those trips, which is really nice, but a reasonable range BEV (it doesn't have to be 500 miles, 150-200 is good enough) will be at least 3-4X that new and there aren't many used.  Without home charging, its hard to see the point.

Cerebus:

--- Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 05:27:07 pm ---What we need is more 'slow charging' infrastructure for people parking on streets, it's just as vital as rapid chargers to enable mass EV adoption.  And these chargers would incentivise overnight charging at times of low demand or of cheap production for those who don't need priority charging.

--- End quote ---

FTFY.

In some cases it's the same thing, but with the amount of PV on the grid nowadays it's not the case that overnight now always represents the cheapest or 'greenest' electricity.

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