Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

[pcprogrammer]

About the new rules, the public will learn when they violate them. And that brings money into the treasury. Win win for the government

But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

[nctnico]

But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

Who is watching TV anyway nowadays? I read news online and watch series / films online.

[Cerebus]

The biggest problem with PHEVs is they are impossible to tax and incentivise correctly, at least if you still have regular petrol hybrids.

That's the exact right wording of the problem.
Like Germany. People were buying these as company cars, and never plugging it to the wall. Why? Because you still got a petrol card, that allowed you to buy petrol to the company's expense, but you couldn't get the same benefit for electricity. It's just bad policy.
I could use a PHEV maybe 90% in electric mode, yet I'm to be taxed almost as an ICE. And this is happening in the 21 century, where it would take a very minimal effort to be able to send telemetry data to the tax office (let's just ignore the data protection aspects of this). So we are not switching to a superior tech, due to policies  .
And yes, the infamous Outlander. I think most of those were exported from here when the incentives ran out. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

I'm sure that company car taxation rules in the UK had a very similar effect. A few years back the UK government introduced a significant reduction in the "benefit in kind" taxation on company cars that were plug-in that led to two models in particular becoming hugely popular as company cars: the BMW 330e and the Lexus RX 450h (plus the infamous Outlander/Taxlander). The people specifying these were, I suspect, in the most part simply looking to reduce their tax liabilities. I'm sure that some were making a genuine "green" choice, but most were simply looking to their pockets and only had a few experimental charges of the battery.

The good news from this is that a glut of them appeared on the post-leasing market at around the same time leading to relatively affordable hybrids becoming available to people who couldn't afford (or didn't want to pay) full ticket prices for a PHEV or BEV. I was one such person and got a BMW 330e in very good condition for a very good price (Not my first choice of style of car at all, I'm a 2 seater convertible kind of guy at heart, my only reason for choosing it was the opportunity to get a plug-in at all). It's notable that the charge cable that plugs into a normal domestic socket that came with mine had little apparent wear when I got the car, it looks much tattier now that I've used it every few days for the last 5 months.

Unfortunately the same bout of tax incentives didn't inject a lot of post-lease BEVs into the market at affordable prices. Despite what some commentators here have said I'm sure that is because many people who were in a position to specify a BEV as a company car were deterred by anxieties over reliable charging. It certainly wasn't a cost issue - the BMW 330e PHEV that I picked up would, with its options, have carried around a £40,000 price tag new off the forecourt - easily enough for those company car specifiers to buy a BEV rather than a PHEV.

Also because of the way the company car market has changed in the UK company cars have gravitated towards the premium/luxury end of the market with most cars that aren't strict essentials going to higher paid executives (30 years ago when I was an middle ranking employee my job attracted a company car as a perk, nowadays the same job wouldn't). Sadly what that meant for PHEVs/BEVs coming off lease was there were negligible numbers in the medium-sized or small car sector so there was no impact in that market segment that most needs affordable second hand PHEVs/BEVs to be hitting the roads.

So yes, the usual story with government meddling of unintended outcomes. At least in the case of the UK gov's failures it put some second hand PHEVs and maybe a small handful of BEVs onto the market at prices that private buyers who couldn't afford a new PHEV/BEV could contemplate.

[pcprogrammer]

But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

Who is watching TV anyway nowadays? I read news online and watch series / films online.

People with ziggo (if they still exist) or whatever internet/tv accounts and watch TV online. We have satellite (CanalDigitaal) and the wife watches the news almost daily. (Besides read a lot of the news online)

But then there is the channel the British government could have used to bring the changes to the greater public. Or push them onto every mobile phone to create awareness. All sorts of possibilities I would say.

[nctnico]

The biggest problem with PHEVs is they are impossible to tax and incentivise correctly, at least if you still have regular petrol hybrids.

That's the exact right wording of the problem.
Like Germany. People were buying these as company cars, and never plugging it to the wall. Why? Because you still got a petrol card, that allowed you to buy petrol to the company's expense, but you couldn't get the same benefit for electricity. It's just bad policy.
I could use a PHEV maybe 90% in electric mode, yet I'm to be taxed almost as an ICE. And this is happening in the 21 century, where it would take a very minimal effort to be able to send telemetry data to the tax office (let's just ignore the data protection aspects of this). So we are not switching to a superior tech, due to policies  .
And yes, the infamous Outlander. I think most of those were exported from here when the incentives ran out. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

I'm sure that company car taxation rules in the UK had a very similar effect. A few years back the UK government introduced a significant reduction in the "benefit in kind" taxation on company cars that were plug-in that led to two models in particular becoming hugely popular as company cars: the BMW 330e and the Lexus RX 450h (plus the infamous Outlander/Taxlander). The people specifying these were, I suspect, in the most part simply looking to reduce their tax liabilities. I'm sure that some were making a genuine "green" choice, but most were simply looking to their pockets and only had a few experimental charges of the battery.

The good news from this is that a glut of them appeared on the post-leasing market at around the same time leading to relatively affordable hybrids becoming available to people who couldn't afford (or didn't want to pay) full ticket prices for a PHEV or BEV. I was one such person and got a BMW 330e in very good condition for a very good price (Not my first choice of style of car at all, I'm a 2 seater convertible kind of guy at heart, my only reason for choosing it was the opportunity to get a plug-in at all). It's notable that the charge cable that plugs into a normal domestic socket that came with mine had little apparent wear when I got the car, it looks much tattier now that I've used it every few days for the last 5 months.

Unfortunately the same bout of tax incentives didn't inject a lot of post-lease BEVs into the market at affordable prices. Despite what some commentators here have said I'm sure that is because many people who were in a position to specify a BEV as a company car were deterred by anxieties over reliable charging. It certainly wasn't a cost issue - the BMW 330e PHEV that I picked up would, with its options, have carried around a £40,000 price tag new off the forecourt - easily enough for those company car specifiers to buy a BEV rather than a PHEV.

Also because of the way the company car market has changed in the UK company cars have gravitated towards the premium/luxury end of the market with most cars that aren't strict essentials going to higher paid executives (30 years ago when I was an middle ranking employee my job attracted a company car as a perk, nowadays the same job wouldn't). Sadly what that meant for PHEVs/BEVs coming off lease was there were negligible numbers in the medium-sized or small car sector so there was no impact in that market segment that most needs affordable second hand PHEVs/BEVs to be hitting the roads.

So yes, the usual story with government meddling of unintended outcomes. At least in the case of the UK gov's failures it put some second hand PHEVs and maybe a small handful of BEVs onto the market at prices that private buyers who couldn't afford a new PHEV/BEV could contemplate.

In all fairness; the Dutch government has similar incentives and they seem to work OK but that is mainly due to the fact that the Netherlands is a very densily populated country so it is not extremely expensive to have a country wide charging infrastructure. Still, a lot (about 1/3) of BEVs supported by tax incentives are being exported because there is no demand for them on the second market.

[tom66]

I do think the 0-2% BIK on company BEVs will do wonders for the post-leasing used market, but aside from Tesla, there were very few competitive EVs available until about 2019 or so.  The first of those (ID.3, iPace, Polestar 2, newer Leaf, maybe e-208/Corsa-e) will be coming to the end of their lease this year and next.  Unfortunately right in the middle of a shortage of new cars, so the leasing companies will make bank and we'll have to wait another year or two for the prices to drop.

My Golf GTE cost half as much at 3 years old as it did new, and now coming on for 6.5 years old,  I can buy a similar model for just £1k less,  the used car market (especially for anything electric, hybrid or not) is insane right now.

[Cerebus]

About the new rules, the public will learn when they violate them. And that brings money into the treasury. Win win for the government

I'll digress for a bit and explain the rôle of the UK Highway Code, and you'll see that particular, understandably cynical, view of the situation doesn't actually pan out. The Highway Code has, currently, 310 "rules". Some of them have the force of law and those laws could attract penalties if broken e.g. you must stop at a red traffic light. Those rules use the the word MUST in bold capitals to mark them out. Many of the rules are codified common sense: Rule 304 - "Look out for pedestrians, especially children, running to catch a tram approaching a stop.", and the rest mostly tell road users what to expect from each other often accompanied by the wording "you should". Those rules don't have the force of law but disregarding them may be used in court to adduce evidence of offences such as careless or dangerous driving.

The new changes are all in the "you should" category. Remember, these are the rules that you won't be automatically prosecuted if you'er seen 'breaking' them. The ones that have the most impact are surrounding where and when you should give way to pedestrians or cyclists, affording them more priority than in previous versions of the rules. In particular part of the new rule H2 says "At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.". Previous custom and practice was that if a vehicle wanted to turn into a side road and pedestrians were waiting to cross, the vehicle would go first and then the pedestrians would cross afterward. Under the new rule in the same circumstances you should stop and wait to turn into the road and let the pedestrians cross. Perfectly sensible, perfectly reasonable, easy to learn to do. I now do that. As a consequence I frequently get drivers behind me who don't realise why I've stopped, honk a horn for me to get moving, and all because they don't know about the new rules and assume I'm a dullard, not a conscientious driver.

Also the pedestrians don't know the new rules, and often don't cross the road when a vehicle has stopped for them, leading to vehicles working to the new rules stopping to give way, waiting for pedestrians who don't move, and eventually driving off again with the pedestrians still standing there. Or possibly waiting, and then starting to move as the pedestrians also finally decide to move.

The lack of publicity for the new rules has, rather than made pedestrians safer, put them at more risk, increased congestion, and set the seeds for some road rage incidents with uninformed drivers. Good intention - "make pedestrians safer", unintended outcomes - as outlined above. I can only describe it as "pathetic incompetence".

[gnuarm]

All this tax-free BEV is BS
I know it is meant to support its adoption
But it has no logical reason, it uses the same roads and presents that same danger to the public (it is still 2 ton metal box on wheels)
But with the current BEV position on the market when it is in Luxury or at least the top of the menu
It is just a support for the wealthy portion of the population
And with wider adoption, they will have to increase taxes anyway because there will be only a few ICE to tax and governments need this huge tax revenue

What does that mean, "tax-free BEV"?  I pay plenty of tax on my BEV. 

[EEVblog]

All this tax-free BEV is BS
I know it is meant to support its adoption
But it has no logical reason, it uses the same roads and presents that same danger to the public (it is still 2 ton metal box on wheels)
But with the current BEV position on the market when it is in Luxury or at least the top of the menu
It is just a support for the wealthy portion of the population
And with wider adoption, they will have to increase taxes anyway because there will be only a few ICE to tax and governments need this huge tax revenue

What does that mean, "tax-free BEV"?  I pay plenty of tax on my BEV.

A lot of countries, and states within countries, have low tax or no tax incentives to buy EV's. They might even give cash grants. You know, all this net-zero stuff.
Similar with solar which is why uptake exploded here in Australia when the subsidies and feed-in tarrifs were announced.

[gnuarm]

All this tax-free BEV is BS
I know it is meant to support its adoption
But it has no logical reason, it uses the same roads and presents that same danger to the public (it is still 2 ton metal box on wheels)
But with the current BEV position on the market when it is in Luxury or at least the top of the menu
It is just a support for the wealthy portion of the population
And with wider adoption, they will have to increase taxes anyway because there will be only a few ICE to tax and governments need this huge tax revenue

What does that mean, "tax-free BEV"?  I pay plenty of tax on my BEV.

A lot of countries, and states within countries, have low tax or no tax incentives to buy EV's. They might even give cash grants. You know, all this net-zero stuff.
Similar with solar which is why uptake exploded here in Australia when the subsidies and feed-in tarrifs were announced.

I don't know what countries they would be.  Do you?  Can you name any?

I bought my BEV in 2018 and had to pay $2,000 to the county.  The state had a BEV only tax of $150 or so when I registered it.  Not every state has a special BEV tax, but many do.  I know of none that let you out of the taxes you pay on other, personal vehicles.

There are incentives that are provided through the federal and state taxes, typically.  That's not the same as "tax free".  It's a one time incentive.

I agree the incentives are no longer needed.  The US incentives had a cap of 200k cars per company.  I'm ok with leaving that in place, but there's no point in giving GM or Tesla further incentives.  The point was to help companies over the hump.  Tesla is well over the hump at this point, don't you think?

I think we can still do well with incentives for residential solar.  But it won't mean much if you can't sell it to the utility.  Some states had laws about net use metering, but after some years repealed it leaving solar owners high and dry.  If they built more capacity than they can use during the day, with the expectation it would be useful to the utility, it is wasted to the owner now they are getting NOTHING in return.  Many have just shut off feeding the grid. 

My house in Virginia is SW facing, so perfect for solar.  I won't be installing anything until there are some regulations in place that control what happens.  My utility won't allow ToU to be combined with selling power to the grid.  It would mean I might be paid more than I use, not because of the kWh, but because the peak rates are 10x the off peak rates!  I don't have to generate much electricity to recover my costs at those numbers.

[bdunham7]

I don't know what countries they would be.  Do you?  Can you name any?

Probably the best well-known example is Norway.  Their polices have led to massive EV adoption even in an Arctic climate.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

[gnuarm]

I don't know what countries they would be.  Do you?  Can you name any?

Probably the best well-known example is Norway.  Their polices have led to massive EV adoption even in an Arctic climate.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

I see some exclusions from taxes paid when buying a BEV, which would be like the incentives we have here, a one time thing to lower the effective cost of the car.  VAT is 25%!!! Wow

Many of the ongoing exclusions have run out, like the road tax.  Tolls and ferry fees are now half rather than free. 

So Norway is not so much different from the US.  They have purchase incentives and some minor ongoing savings on tolls, but charge a road tax.

[Miyuki]

I don't know what countries they would be.  Do you?  Can you name any?

Probably the best well-known example is Norway.  Their polices have led to massive EV adoption even in an Arctic climate.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/

I see some exclusions from taxes paid when buying a BEV, which would be like the incentives we have here, a one time thing to lower the effective cost of the car.  VAT is 25%!!! Wow

Many of the ongoing exclusions have run out, like the road tax.  Tolls and ferry fees are now half rather than free. 

So Norway is not so much different from the US.  They have purchase incentives and some minor ongoing savings on tolls, but charge a road tax.

Almost all EU countries have some form of lowered taxes and/or direct incentives
And 0% VAT is considered to be EU wide 
Free or cheaper highways (this makes no sense)
Free or cheaper city entry and parking make sense

Plus of course making new ICE taxes, to make look EV "cheaper"

[tom66]

Isn't it still the case that with taxes something like a Volkswagen Passat is nearly as expensive as a Model 3, in Norway.  I seem to recall that "factoid" floating about, not sure if it's true or not.