General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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pcprogrammer:
About the new rules, the public will learn when they violate them. And that brings money into the treasury. Win win for the government :-DD

But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 11:20:19 am ---But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

--- End quote ---
Who is watching TV anyway nowadays? I read news online and watch series / films online.
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 09:08:41 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 02:49:46 pm ---The biggest problem with PHEVs is they are impossible to tax and incentivise correctly, at least if you still have regular petrol hybrids.

--- End quote ---
That's the exact right wording of the problem.
Like Germany. People were buying these as company cars, and never plugging it to the wall. Why? Because you still got a petrol card, that allowed you to buy petrol to the company's expense, but you couldn't get the same benefit for electricity. It's just bad policy.
I could use a PHEV maybe 90% in electric mode, yet I'm to be taxed almost as an ICE. And this is happening in the 21 century, where it would take a very minimal effort to be able to send telemetry data to the tax office (let's just ignore the data protection aspects of this). So we are not switching to a superior tech, due to policies  :palm:.
And yes, the infamous Outlander. I think most of those were exported from here when the incentives ran out. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

--- End quote ---

I'm sure that company car taxation rules in the UK had a very similar effect. A few years back the UK government introduced a significant reduction in the "benefit in kind" taxation on company cars that were plug-in that led to two models in particular becoming hugely popular as company cars: the BMW 330e and the Lexus RX 450h (plus the infamous Outlander/Taxlander). The people specifying these were, I suspect, in the most part simply looking to reduce their tax liabilities. I'm sure that some were making a genuine "green" choice, but most were simply looking to their pockets and only had a few experimental charges of the battery.

The good news from this is that a glut of them appeared on the post-leasing market at around the same time leading to relatively affordable hybrids becoming available to people who couldn't afford (or didn't want to pay) full ticket prices for a PHEV or BEV. I was one such person and got a BMW 330e in very good condition for a very good price (Not my first choice of style of car at all, I'm a 2 seater convertible kind of guy at heart, my only reason for choosing it was the opportunity to get a plug-in at all). It's notable that the charge cable that plugs into a normal domestic socket that came with mine had little apparent wear when I got the car, it looks much tattier now that I've used it every few days for the last 5 months.

Unfortunately the same bout of tax incentives didn't inject a lot of post-lease BEVs into the market at affordable prices. Despite what some commentators here have said I'm sure that is because many people who were in a position to specify a BEV as a company car were deterred by anxieties over reliable charging. It certainly wasn't a cost issue - the BMW 330e PHEV that I picked up would, with its options, have carried around a £40,000 price tag new off the forecourt - easily enough for those company car specifiers to buy a BEV rather than a PHEV.

Also because of the way the company car market has changed in the UK company cars have gravitated towards the premium/luxury end of the market with most cars that aren't strict essentials going to higher paid executives (30 years ago when I was an middle ranking employee my job attracted a company car as a perk, nowadays the same job wouldn't). Sadly what that meant for PHEVs/BEVs coming off lease was there were negligible numbers in the medium-sized or small car sector so there was no impact in that market segment that most needs affordable second hand PHEVs/BEVs to be hitting the roads.

So yes, the usual story with government meddling of unintended outcomes. At least in the case of the UK gov's failures it put some second hand PHEVs and maybe a small handful of BEVs onto the market at prices that private buyers who couldn't afford a new PHEV/BEV could contemplate.
pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 24, 2022, 11:42:45 am ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on August 24, 2022, 11:20:19 am ---But in all seriousness it is indeed bad times that this kind of information is not widely spread. I guess television time has become to expensive.

--- End quote ---
Who is watching TV anyway nowadays? I read news online and watch series / films online.

--- End quote ---

People with ziggo (if they still exist) or whatever internet/tv accounts and watch TV online. We have satellite (CanalDigitaal) and the wife watches the news almost daily. (Besides read a lot of the news online)

But then there is the channel the British government could have used to bring the changes to the greater public. Or push them onto every mobile phone to create awareness. All sorts of possibilities I would say.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on August 24, 2022, 11:50:03 am ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 24, 2022, 09:08:41 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 23, 2022, 02:49:46 pm ---The biggest problem with PHEVs is they are impossible to tax and incentivise correctly, at least if you still have regular petrol hybrids.

--- End quote ---
That's the exact right wording of the problem.
Like Germany. People were buying these as company cars, and never plugging it to the wall. Why? Because you still got a petrol card, that allowed you to buy petrol to the company's expense, but you couldn't get the same benefit for electricity. It's just bad policy.
I could use a PHEV maybe 90% in electric mode, yet I'm to be taxed almost as an ICE. And this is happening in the 21 century, where it would take a very minimal effort to be able to send telemetry data to the tax office (let's just ignore the data protection aspects of this). So we are not switching to a superior tech, due to policies  :palm:.
And yes, the infamous Outlander. I think most of those were exported from here when the incentives ran out. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

--- End quote ---

I'm sure that company car taxation rules in the UK had a very similar effect. A few years back the UK government introduced a significant reduction in the "benefit in kind" taxation on company cars that were plug-in that led to two models in particular becoming hugely popular as company cars: the BMW 330e and the Lexus RX 450h (plus the infamous Outlander/Taxlander). The people specifying these were, I suspect, in the most part simply looking to reduce their tax liabilities. I'm sure that some were making a genuine "green" choice, but most were simply looking to their pockets and only had a few experimental charges of the battery.

The good news from this is that a glut of them appeared on the post-leasing market at around the same time leading to relatively affordable hybrids becoming available to people who couldn't afford (or didn't want to pay) full ticket prices for a PHEV or BEV. I was one such person and got a BMW 330e in very good condition for a very good price (Not my first choice of style of car at all, I'm a 2 seater convertible kind of guy at heart, my only reason for choosing it was the opportunity to get a plug-in at all). It's notable that the charge cable that plugs into a normal domestic socket that came with mine had little apparent wear when I got the car, it looks much tattier now that I've used it every few days for the last 5 months.

Unfortunately the same bout of tax incentives didn't inject a lot of post-lease BEVs into the market at affordable prices. Despite what some commentators here have said I'm sure that is because many people who were in a position to specify a BEV as a company car were deterred by anxieties over reliable charging. It certainly wasn't a cost issue - the BMW 330e PHEV that I picked up would, with its options, have carried around a £40,000 price tag new off the forecourt - easily enough for those company car specifiers to buy a BEV rather than a PHEV.

Also because of the way the company car market has changed in the UK company cars have gravitated towards the premium/luxury end of the market with most cars that aren't strict essentials going to higher paid executives (30 years ago when I was an middle ranking employee my job attracted a company car as a perk, nowadays the same job wouldn't). Sadly what that meant for PHEVs/BEVs coming off lease was there were negligible numbers in the medium-sized or small car sector so there was no impact in that market segment that most needs affordable second hand PHEVs/BEVs to be hitting the roads.

So yes, the usual story with government meddling of unintended outcomes. At least in the case of the UK gov's failures it put some second hand PHEVs and maybe a small handful of BEVs onto the market at prices that private buyers who couldn't afford a new PHEV/BEV could contemplate.

--- End quote ---
In all fairness; the Dutch government has similar incentives and they seem to work OK but that is mainly due to the fact that the Netherlands is a very densily populated country so it is not extremely expensive to have a country wide charging infrastructure. Still, a lot (about 1/3) of BEVs supported by tax incentives are being exported because there is no demand for them on the second market.
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