Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

[gnuarm]

You don't seem to understand fuel taxes.

Arguing with you always ends the same way: "you do not understand", "it is on you", "it's is your fault" (this last is mine, as an example)...

At least I do understand this, so this ends here.

If you don't want to discuss reasonably, that's fine.

"Fuel taxes exist now and are useless, as they tax equally small and big cars,"

This is what I was responding to.  Do you have some special fuel tax that taxes every vehicle the same, no matter how much fuel it uses?  I would say that's not a fuel tax.

[gnuarm]

@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.

And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.

Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas.  That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it. 

Fuel from oil isn't going away overnight so franticly going after electric cars and trying to shoehorn BEVs as a universal solution isn't going to work.

You exaggerate and create a strawman.

BEVs will work as a largely "universal" solution once they are in place in numbers that will encourage appropriate charging to be built for charging AT HOME or AT WORK. 

There is a market segment for which BEVs work well at this point in time. For the remaining market, hybrids are currently the best solution.

What is this "remaining market" 

Hybrids don't compete with BEVs, because they are inherently linked to producing carbon pollution.  You can't solve the carbon problem with hybrids.  That's not what they do.  They simply save people money on fuel, but much less so than BEVs.  When petroleum is cut off for whatever reason, BEVs won't go very far.

Looking at the trends, hydrogen looks to become the new oil so who knows what the future will bring. It might as well be that BEVs go away and cars will move towards FCEVs (fuel cell -typically hydrogen powered- electric vehicle). Even today a FCEV would be more economic to drive compared to a BEV when needing to rely on public charging.

Hydrogen has literally no future for cars.  The issues are numerous.  You again talk about public charging as being hugely expensive.  Is charging in your country $10 per kWh?  I know FCEVs are not that insanely expensive to run, but they are around 10X the cost of electrons in the US.

[gnuarm]

If it can be charged at home

I think that is one of the two real questions for most people, the other being the cost of a car.  Even in todays inflated market, you can find (here at least) a decent used car for $10-12K that will go 500 miles between trips to Costco for gas.  A BEV with home charging eliminates those trips, which is really nice, but a reasonable range BEV (it doesn't have to be 500 miles, 150-200 is good enough) will be at least 3-4X that new and there aren't many used.  Without home charging, its hard to see the point.

If you want to buy a used BEV, what is stopping you?  There are lots of used BEVs in the US for $10k.  They are typically Nissan Leaf or similar, but can easily go more than 100 miles on a charge, potentially 150 even. 

Then there is the issue that you are judging BEVs on what is available today.  Other than a few such as the Leaf, the only vehicles with 150 to 200 mile range are the Bolt and the Tesla Model 3/Y.  The Teslas have not been on the market long enough to be $10,000 cars.  You might be able to pick up a $10,00 Bolt, not sure.  But give it another 5 years and there will be a lot more used BEVs with 200 mile range.

So don't buy one now.  Wait for the right price.  Even the new ones will be dropping in price as the competition heats up in the next few years.

[gnuarm]

What we need is more 'slow charging' infrastructure for people parking on streets, it's just as vital as rapid chargers to enable mass EV adoption.  And these chargers would incentivise overnight charging at times of low demand or of cheap production for those who don't need priority charging.

FTFY.

In some cases it's the same thing, but with the amount of PV on the grid nowadays it's not the case that overnight now always represents the cheapest or 'greenest' electricity.

That's true.  California sees regular surpluses of electricity from solar generation during the day.  That's why we need to promote charging at work! 

BEVs are a natural complement with intermittent renewables.  They don't need to be charged every day.  They can be charged when the power is available and then driven for up to a week! 

[tom66]

Exactly.  A typical car is parked up for 95% of the time.  If it's plugged in, it can absorb electrons whenever there's a surplus. 

Used EVs will probably retain their value for longer than expected because the maintenance is less and the batteries are lasting long.  Leaf's are only as cheap as they are because their batteries are crap. 

As an example, my PHEV has barely dropped in 'value' compared to equivalent models over the last 3.5 years.  That's true even before the chip shortage made it harder to buy cars.  So unfortunately those hoping to buy a cheap EV on the used market, may be disappointed.  Demand is high and supply is low.

[nctnico]

@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.

And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.

Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas.  That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it. 

And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?

Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.

A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).

[tszaboo]

-MHEV: Just a beefed up starter motor, 48V battery, 0km range. The electric motor is used to reduce consumption, and the ICE is always on. The best benefit of these is being able to cheat on taxes.
-"self charging hybrid" (I hate that term as well): ~300V battery, 2km range, cannot be charged from the wall. The ICE is shutdown about 30% of the time in normal use, fuel efficiency is very good, 4-5L/100KM, compared to the 7-8L for similar sized car. Most Toyota, Lexus is this category.
-PHEV: Plugin hybrid. Goes 20-50KM on a charge from the wall. The ICE can drive the wheels.
-REX PHEV: This is BMW i3, i8 and Opel Ampera others. The wheels are driven only by an electric motor, range is limited to ~50KM or so. There is electric generator and a ICE completely separate from the drivetrain, to charge the battery. The i3 motor is like 600cc, and comes from a motorbike AFAIK.
-BEV

Hybrids and BEVs are completely different animals.  Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero!  Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel. 

That's so wrong on so many levels. The toyota prius has 200x less NOX emissions than those Diesel VW. And in many countries it is greener to drive a hybrid than an ICE just because where that electricity is coming from.
But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

[tom66]

Comparing electric vehicle TCO by comparing the cost per mile with highway supercharging is like complaining petrol cars cost a lot to run if you only fill them up at highway service stations that charge 50% more than anywhere else

Like, no one who owns a BEV who has any kind of sense would do that, so stop with this argument, it's stupid.  We get it, you can construct a use case for BEVs being more expensive.  You would be foolish to use a car like that, just like you'd be foolish to buy a hydrogen car... well, in general, but especially if you did not live near refuelling infrastructure.

The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh.  When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less.  Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates. 

[bdunham7]

The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh.  When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less.  Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates.

Unfortunately for me the utility here has convinced regulators to do away with reasonably priced nighttime power so my lowest cost at home is 31 cents/kWh.  My BEV averages 239Wh/mile, so 7.5 cents per mile.  At $5/gal for gasoline, a hybrid would have to get 67mpg to match that.  It is getting to be a close call with our high rates, and if electricity was any more expensive a less-efficient BEV wouldn't be looking so good.

[NiHaoMike]

Unfortunately for me the utility here has convinced regulators to do away with reasonably priced nighttime power so my lowest cost at home is 31 cents/kWh.  My BEV averages 239Wh/mile, so 7.5 cents per mile.  At $5/gal for gasoline, a hybrid would have to get 67mpg to match that.  It is getting to be a close call with our high rates, and if electricity was any more expensive a less-efficient BEV wouldn't be looking so good.

The difference is that one could easily generate their own electricity using solar panels or wind turbines. Making gasoline at home is not anywhere as easy or practical.

[nctnico]

The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh.  When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less.  Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates.

Good for you. Over here prices for charging are much higher -according to the websites of companies that provide public street and highway charging services-.

[Cerebus]

@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.

And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.

Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas.  That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it. 

And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?

Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.

A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).

BEV costs are only higher than hydrocarbons in the specific, narrow scenario that you pick. In every other scenario they are cheaper.

My PHEV has used two, repeat two, tanks of gas this year (82L). All the other mileage has been done on electricity, mostly charged at home at £0.208/kWh, a little free at supermarket public charging points (10-20 kWh), and one, repeat one, top up charge at a public point that I had to pay for (£1.05 @ £0.28/kWh) done purely to try out the infrastructure. I have spent a fraction of what I did last year running a small, efficient car on petrol alone and I've done proportionately higher mileage.

In pretty much any scenario other than your carefully picked one, BEVs and PHEVs cost less to run.

[bdunham7]

In pretty much any scenario other than your carefully picked one, BEVs and PHEVs cost less to run.

Let's be fair here, even with those whom we disagree.  The situation nctnico describes isn't one he dreamed up to discredit BEVs, it just happens to be his real situation.  BEVs and PHEVs work for me and apparently for you, but they aren't for everybody.  Even here an urban apartment dweller might struggle quite a bit with a BEV.  A significant number of BEV buyers have given up and gone back to gas.

Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty.  If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point. 

[gnuarm]

@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.

And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.

Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas.  That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it. 

And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?

I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that charging a BEV doesn't need to be expensive.  There is no need to use "public charging".  Charge at home or charge at work.  Even if charging at work is not free, there's no reason for it to be overly expensive.   

I don't know what you have read that makes you think this is a huge problem, but waving your arms over you head and shouting "public charging" doesn't make it a problem.

Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.

As with all things, supply and demand set the price.  I don't know what your kWh of electricity costs, but that would be the floor.

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.

Electricity price varies a lot in the US, but it's seldom over $0.06 a mile or ~$0.04 a km.  My cost is $0.03 a mile and I drive a model X, an electron guzzler.  I think your problem is in your expensive electricity.  Maybe you should look into that?

A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).

Yup, you definitely have an electricity price problem.  Hybrids only reduce the cost of fuel.  They will never address the pollution issue.  So they are not comparable to BEVs. 

[gnuarm]

Hybrids and BEVs are completely different animals.  Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero!  Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel. 

That's so wrong on so many levels.

It's not at all wrong.  It's a fact. 

The toyota prius has 200x less NOX emissions than those Diesel VW. And in many countries it is greener to drive a hybrid than an ICE just because where that electricity is coming from.

 

But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

A false dilemma.  We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them.  Presenting false arguments do not help.  Carbon emissions is a long term game.  We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years.  I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.

[Cerebus]

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

[gnuarm]

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

I suppose the distances make that possible.  I'm a couple of miles from the closest little country store around here and 25 miles from a real city with places where I can buy food.  The roads would be a death trap for anyone on a bicycle, on top of dealing with ugly weather like today.  No, we don't have many people using bikes.

[tom66]

Let's be fair here, even with those whom we disagree.  The situation nctnico describes isn't one he dreamed up to discredit BEVs, it just happens to be his real situation.  BEVs and PHEVs work for me and apparently for you, but they aren't for everybody.  Even here an urban apartment dweller might struggle quite a bit with a BEV.  A significant number of BEV buyers have given up and gone back to gas.

Agreed, but the scenario depicted is not really that realistic.  It suggests that the car would always need to be DC charged, there is never an opportunity while parked to AC charge.  In reality, the average car gets 5% usage and is parked somewhere else for 95% of the time.

I am not all that familiar with the charging network in the Netherlands but did find that Amsterdam and other large cities are covered in AC charging (after all, this was Tesla's biggest market, or pretty close to it, a few years ago).  I found this resource that suggests the majority of AC charges are EUR0.39/kWh or less - about the same as the UK.
https://help.evbox.com/s/article/What-are-the-charging-fees-of-EVBox-roaming-partners?language=en_US

That's still at parity or cheaper than fuel - and ignores other TCO benefits of EVs like reduced servicing needs and lower congestion/pollution fees/taxes.

Do we need more on street charging - absolutely... this is infrastructure that pays for itself, even if only charged at 0.05 EUR over the cost of electricity.  Example: if the average post dispenses 7kW and is used overnight for 6 hours and in the day for 6 hours, then that's 1500 euros a year in profit alone for the operator.  The install cost and maintenance is easily paid for within 10 years (especially if 10+ of these are installed at once).  For a fast charger dispensing 50kWh per hour (ok weird units) in say 12 hours then it's making 30 euros per day alone at that margin - so has a 5yr or so payback time.   BUT crucially this infrastructure only works when there is high EV usage.  It is not profitable if there are only a few % of users and posts get little use.

We are in that early stage where it is still a bit chicken and egg - providers are still a little nervous about massively scaling up because they're worried the demand won't follow (and EV sales have surged but a little slower because of chip shortage issues reducing supply) - which is pushing prices a little higher than ideal.  I expect they will fall in the longer term, because competition waits for no man.  But, it's getting there; I've had my PHEV for almost 4 years now, and this is probably the best year to own an EV of any kind, so much more infrastructure, and I can't even take advantage of a lot of it because my car doesn't DC charge.

[tszaboo]

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

[Miyuki]

Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.

Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty.  If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point.

It is another elephant in the room of this industry. As all car industry is heavily anti-repair, EV offered them a great weapon to make repair "impossible" (they prohibit it even when it is in most cases a simple repair that can be done by any equipped repair shop)
Minor issues like this, some small seal leak or faulty cell will render the whole car a brick.
Same as is now a big battle about if you can choose what repair facility you use for your car.

But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

A false dilemma.  We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them.  Presenting false arguments do not help.  Carbon emissions is a long term game.  We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years.  I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.

No, you won't have 50% of BEV in 5 years. There is no way to ramp battery production this fast and source raw materials for it.
The only possibility is to artificially limit the number of new cars sold. And I do not see it will pass an angry mob.

Plus of course, governments will have to slowly bring all the taxes they pose on "conventional cars" to EVs as it is a huge part of their revenue and it cannot go down

[bdunham7]

Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity.

This is the next issue--some manufacturers have emphasized efficiency to increase range, others just bolt on ever-larger batteries to their luxobarges.  An efficient BEV should be <15kWh/100km and I don't mean less-than-car alternatives. 

[Cerebus]

Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.

They don't have to be flat. Brighton on the South Coast of England has huge numbers of active cyclists, 22% of the city's residents regularly cycle, and it's very far from flat, the whole city is built on a slope that goes from the South Downs behind it to the sea in front of it. The main north-south routes from the seafront have a 5% gradient. In fact it has one of the steepest city roads I've ever encountered with a 20% gradient and that used to be one of my favourite short cuts when cycling between Hove and Brighton when I lived there. (It also has one of the best Fish and Chip shops in Brighton, possibly the whole South Coast, at the top of it.)

[tom66]

Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity.

This is the next issue--some manufacturers have emphasized efficiency to increase range, others just bolt on ever-larger batteries to their luxobarges.  An efficient BEV should be <15kWh/100km and I don't mean less-than-car alternatives.

See, for instance, the Hummer EV:  200kWh battery giving a 400 mile range.   Meanwhile a Model S with the 100kWh battery nearly hits that (and the 'S' is a big car!)

Yes - it's good that the Hummer EV is fully electric - no it's not good that it's the size of a small house. We need to rethink transportation if this is considered a normal sized vehicle for a family.

I hope 'if' autonomous vehicles become more common it will be possible to packetise transport, where you can be picked up in a 1-2 person vehicle if you are commuting but rent a 4-5 person vehicle for longer trips.

Long way off from that future so for now we need to make smaller vehicles more popular whilst improving access to larger ones when needed (car/van sharing, better delivery...)  It always amuses me the sight of someone buying something at IKEA with their giant SUV - and still not being able to fit it all in, usually having something poking out of a window.

[nctnico]

Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity.

This is the next issue--some manufacturers have emphasized efficiency to increase range, others just bolt on ever-larger batteries to their luxobarges.  An efficient BEV should be <15kWh/100km and I don't mean less-than-car alternatives.

I have wrote it before: if you look at very efficient BEVs (like the new Mercedes EQXX concept) you'll see the same shape as people use to modify ICE cars to become a lot more efficient.

A problem I do see is that cars become less practical. The booth space shrinks and the space people have in the rear seats get smaller due to the roof becoming lower. At some point you can't optimise further without sacrificing useability.

It always amuses me the sight of someone buying something at IKEA with their giant SUV - and still not being able to fit it all in, usually having something poking out of a window.

One of the advantages of a bicycle is that you can easely transport very long items like tubes and lengths of wood. IIRC my record is 5 meters or so.

I don't get the appeal of a SUV either. Last year we had to rent a car which turned out to be some kind of SUV model (Renault 2008) but we could barely fit our luggage in it.

Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.

Not really. With suitable clothing you can cycle all year round while being warm and comfy even when it is cold and/or raining. In the end it is about changing your habbits. With electric bikes being commonly available, flat terrain isn't necessary.

[emece67]

.