General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: emece67 on July 30, 2022, 06:44:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 05:13:49 pm ---You don't seem to understand fuel taxes.
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Arguing with you always ends the same way: "you do not understand", "it is on you", "it's is your fault" (this last is mine, as an example)...
At least I do understand this, so this ends here.
--- End quote ---
If you don't want to discuss reasonably, that's fine.
"Fuel taxes exist now and are useless, as they tax equally small and big cars,"
This is what I was responding to. Do you have some special fuel tax that taxes every vehicle the same, no matter how much fuel it uses? I would say that's not a fuel tax.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm ---@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.
And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.
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Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas. That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it.
--- Quote ---Fuel from oil isn't going away overnight so franticly going after electric cars and trying to shoehorn BEVs as a universal solution isn't going to work.
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You exaggerate and create a strawman.
BEVs will work as a largely "universal" solution once they are in place in numbers that will encourage appropriate charging to be built for charging AT HOME or AT WORK.
--- Quote ---There is a market segment for which BEVs work well at this point in time. For the remaining market, hybrids are currently the best solution.
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What is this "remaining market"???
Hybrids don't compete with BEVs, because they are inherently linked to producing carbon pollution. You can't solve the carbon problem with hybrids. That's not what they do. They simply save people money on fuel, but much less so than BEVs. When petroleum is cut off for whatever reason, BEVs won't go very far.
--- Quote ---Looking at the trends, hydrogen looks to become the new oil so who knows what the future will bring. It might as well be that BEVs go away and cars will move towards FCEVs (fuel cell -typically hydrogen powered- electric vehicle). Even today a FCEV would be more economic to drive compared to a BEV when needing to rely on public charging.
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Hydrogen has literally no future for cars. The issues are numerous. You again talk about public charging as being hugely expensive. Is charging in your country $10 per kWh? I know FCEVs are not that insanely expensive to run, but they are around 10X the cost of electrons in the US.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 30, 2022, 10:44:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 10:24:44 pm ---If it can be charged at home
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I think that is one of the two real questions for most people, the other being the cost of a car. Even in todays inflated market, you can find (here at least) a decent used car for $10-12K that will go 500 miles between trips to Costco for gas. A BEV with home charging eliminates those trips, which is really nice, but a reasonable range BEV (it doesn't have to be 500 miles, 150-200 is good enough) will be at least 3-4X that new and there aren't many used. Without home charging, its hard to see the point.
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If you want to buy a used BEV, what is stopping you? There are lots of used BEVs in the US for $10k. They are typically Nissan Leaf or similar, but can easily go more than 100 miles on a charge, potentially 150 even.
Then there is the issue that you are judging BEVs on what is available today. Other than a few such as the Leaf, the only vehicles with 150 to 200 mile range are the Bolt and the Tesla Model 3/Y. The Teslas have not been on the market long enough to be $10,000 cars. You might be able to pick up a $10,00 Bolt, not sure. But give it another 5 years and there will be a lot more used BEVs with 200 mile range.
So don't buy one now. Wait for the right price. Even the new ones will be dropping in price as the competition heats up in the next few years.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 12:08:57 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 30, 2022, 05:27:07 pm ---What we need is more 'slow charging' infrastructure for people parking on streets, it's just as vital as rapid chargers to enable mass EV adoption. And these chargers would incentivise overnight charging at times of low demand or of cheap production for those who don't need priority charging.
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FTFY.
In some cases it's the same thing, but with the amount of PV on the grid nowadays it's not the case that overnight now always represents the cheapest or 'greenest' electricity.
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That's true. California sees regular surpluses of electricity from solar generation during the day. That's why we need to promote charging at work!
BEVs are a natural complement with intermittent renewables. They don't need to be charged every day. They can be charged when the power is available and then driven for up to a week!
tom66:
Exactly. A typical car is parked up for 95% of the time. If it's plugged in, it can absorb electrons whenever there's a surplus.
Used EVs will probably retain their value for longer than expected because the maintenance is less and the batteries are lasting long. Leaf's are only as cheap as they are because their batteries are crap.
As an example, my PHEV has barely dropped in 'value' compared to equivalent models over the last 3.5 years. That's true even before the chip shortage made it harder to buy cars. So unfortunately those hoping to buy a cheap EV on the used market, may be disappointed. Demand is high and supply is low.
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