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| Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc... |
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| nctnico:
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 06:44:51 am --- --- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm ---@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm. And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs. --- End quote --- Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas. That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it. --- End quote --- And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever? Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter. A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike). So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km. A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter). |
| tszaboo:
-MHEV: Just a beefed up starter motor, 48V battery, 0km range. The electric motor is used to reduce consumption, and the ICE is always on. The best benefit of these is being able to cheat on taxes. -"self charging hybrid" (I hate that term as well): ~300V battery, 2km range, cannot be charged from the wall. The ICE is shutdown about 30% of the time in normal use, fuel efficiency is very good, 4-5L/100KM, compared to the 7-8L for similar sized car. Most Toyota, Lexus is this category. -PHEV: Plugin hybrid. Goes 20-50KM on a charge from the wall. The ICE can drive the wheels. -REX PHEV: This is BMW i3, i8 and Opel Ampera others. The wheels are driven only by an electric motor, range is limited to ~50KM or so. There is electric generator and a ICE completely separate from the drivetrain, to charge the battery. The i3 motor is like 600cc, and comes from a motorbike AFAIK. -BEV --- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 05:19:29 pm ---Hybrids and BEVs are completely different animals. Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero! Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel. --- End quote --- That's so wrong on so many levels. The toyota prius has 200x less NOX emissions than those Diesel VW. And in many countries it is greener to drive a hybrid than an ICE just because where that electricity is coming from. But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better? |
| tom66:
Comparing electric vehicle TCO by comparing the cost per mile with highway supercharging is like complaining petrol cars cost a lot to run if you only fill them up at highway service stations that charge 50% more than anywhere else Like, no one who owns a BEV who has any kind of sense would do that, so stop with this argument, it's stupid. We get it, you can construct a use case for BEVs being more expensive. You would be foolish to use a car like that, just like you'd be foolish to buy a hydrogen car... well, in general, but especially if you did not live near refuelling infrastructure. The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh. When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less. Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates. |
| bdunham7:
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 31, 2022, 10:15:44 am ---The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh. When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less. Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates. --- End quote --- Unfortunately for me the utility here has convinced regulators to do away with reasonably priced nighttime power so my lowest cost at home is 31 cents/kWh. My BEV averages 239Wh/mile, so 7.5 cents per mile. At $5/gal for gasoline, a hybrid would have to get 67mpg to match that. It is getting to be a close call with our high rates, and if electricity was any more expensive a less-efficient BEV wouldn't be looking so good. |
| NiHaoMike:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 02:12:12 pm ---Unfortunately for me the utility here has convinced regulators to do away with reasonably priced nighttime power so my lowest cost at home is 31 cents/kWh. My BEV averages 239Wh/mile, so 7.5 cents per mile. At $5/gal for gasoline, a hybrid would have to get 67mpg to match that. It is getting to be a close call with our high rates, and if electricity was any more expensive a less-efficient BEV wouldn't be looking so good. --- End quote --- The difference is that one could easily generate their own electricity using solar panels or wind turbines. Making gasoline at home is not anywhere as easy or practical. |
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