General > General Technical Chat
Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
nctnico:
--- Quote from: tom66 on July 31, 2022, 10:15:44 am ---The most I have ever paid for AC electricity was 35p/kWh. When I had an i3 for a few weeks, I paid max 38p/kWh once, to charge up off a motorway. All other times, I charged at home or on street charging at half that or even less. Still, I can get overnight electricity for 1/4 daytime rates.
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Good for you. Over here prices for charging are much higher -according to the websites of companies that provide public street and highway charging services-.
Cerebus:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2022, 09:07:36 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 06:44:51 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm ---@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.
And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.
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Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas. That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it.
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And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?
Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.
A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).
So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.
A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).
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BEV costs are only higher than hydrocarbons in the specific, narrow scenario that you pick. In every other scenario they are cheaper.
My PHEV has used two, repeat two, tanks of gas this year (82L). All the other mileage has been done on electricity, mostly charged at home at £0.208/kWh, a little free at supermarket public charging points (10-20 kWh), and one, repeat one, top up charge at a public point that I had to pay for (£1.05 @ £0.28/kWh) done purely to try out the infrastructure. I have spent a fraction of what I did last year running a small, efficient car on petrol alone and I've done proportionately higher mileage.
In pretty much any scenario other than your carefully picked one, BEVs and PHEVs cost less to run.
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 04:21:12 pm ---In pretty much any scenario other than your carefully picked one, BEVs and PHEVs cost less to run.
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Let's be fair here, even with those whom we disagree. The situation nctnico describes isn't one he dreamed up to discredit BEVs, it just happens to be his real situation. BEVs and PHEVs work for me and apparently for you, but they aren't for everybody. Even here an urban apartment dweller might struggle quite a bit with a BEV. A significant number of BEV buyers have given up and gone back to gas.
Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty. If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 31, 2022, 09:07:36 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 06:44:51 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 30, 2022, 06:36:06 pm ---@gnuarm: the situation in the EU is different compared to the US. Prices are very much regulated. With today's high oil prices, governments across Europe are cutting taxes on fuel in order to maintain low price levels so people can afford to go to their work and keep their homes warm.
And please don't move the goal posts by bringing in 'charging at home' when I explicity state 'public charging'. Just do the math for people that have to rely on public charging exclusively and you'll see a hybrid wins hands down on 'fuel' costs.
--- End quote ---
Ok, then it costs a lot to have your car transported to other countries overseas. That's about as relevant as talking about paying for "public charging", because very few people do it.
--- End quote ---
And the reason very few people do it is because it makes a BEV too expensive compared to a hybrid. That is the simple reason; no need to dream up all kinds of future scenarios that don't take away the primary issue: charging infrastructure is too expensive. Do you really think charging at work stays for free forever?
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I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that charging a BEV doesn't need to be expensive. There is no need to use "public charging". Charge at home or charge at work. Even if charging at work is not free, there's no reason for it to be overly expensive.
I don't know what you have read that makes you think this is a huge problem, but waving your arms over you head and shouting "public charging" doesn't make it a problem.
--- Quote ---Over here prices for public charging go from about 50ct (slow charging) to 80ct (supercharging) eurocent per kWh with no guarantee these prices won't increase a lot due to investors in public charging wanting to see an ROI. OTOH: the current crisis has shown that governments in the EU cap gasoline prices to around 1.60 to 2.0 euro per liter.
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As with all things, supply and demand set the price. I don't know what your kWh of electricity costs, but that would be the floor.
--- Quote ---A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).
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LOL!!! I want to see your population on bikes. People here don't like being rained or snowed on.
--- Quote ---So the BEV sets you back 12.5 to 16 ct per km.
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Electricity price varies a lot in the US, but it's seldom over $0.06 a mile or ~$0.04 a km. My cost is $0.03 a mile and I drive a model X, an electron guzzler. I think your problem is in your expensive electricity. Maybe you should look into that?
--- Quote ---A hybrid easely reaches 5l / 100km which sets you back 10ct per km (assuming the fuel price is 2 euro per liter).
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Yup, you definitely have an electricity price problem. Hybrids only reduce the cost of fuel. They will never address the pollution issue. So they are not comparable to BEVs.
gnuarm:
--- Quote from: tszaboo on July 31, 2022, 09:51:00 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 30, 2022, 05:19:29 pm ---Hybrids and BEVs are completely different animals. Hybrids reduce fuel consumption, but do little for carbon emissions, because "reducing" emissions are pointless when we need to get to zero! Hybrids have never been about anything other than saving money spent on fuel.
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That's so wrong on so many levels.
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It's not at all wrong. It's a fact.
--- Quote ---The toyota prius has 200x less NOX emissions than those Diesel VW. And in many countries it is greener to drive a hybrid than an ICE just because where that electricity is coming from.
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???
--- Quote ---But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?
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A false dilemma. We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them. Presenting false arguments do not help. Carbon emissions is a long term game. We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years. I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.
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