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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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Cerebus:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 08:59:07 pm ---
--- Quote ---A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).
--- End quote ---

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

--- End quote ---

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 09:15:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 08:59:07 pm ---
--- Quote ---A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).
--- End quote ---

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

--- End quote ---

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

--- End quote ---

I suppose the distances make that possible.  I'm a couple of miles from the closest little country store around here and 25 miles from a real city with places where I can buy food.  The roads would be a death trap for anyone on a bicycle, on top of dealing with ugly weather like today.  No, we don't have many people using bikes.
tom66:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pm ---Let's be fair here, even with those whom we disagree.  The situation nctnico describes isn't one he dreamed up to discredit BEVs, it just happens to be his real situation.  BEVs and PHEVs work for me and apparently for you, but they aren't for everybody.  Even here an urban apartment dweller might struggle quite a bit with a BEV.  A significant number of BEV buyers have given up and gone back to gas.

--- End quote ---

Agreed, but the scenario depicted is not really that realistic.  It suggests that the car would always need to be DC charged, there is never an opportunity while parked to AC charge.  In reality, the average car gets 5% usage and is parked somewhere else for 95% of the time.

I am not all that familiar with the charging network in the Netherlands but did find that Amsterdam and other large cities are covered in AC charging (after all, this was Tesla's biggest market, or pretty close to it, a few years ago).  I found this resource that suggests the majority of AC charges are EUR0.39/kWh or less - about the same as the UK.
https://help.evbox.com/s/article/What-are-the-charging-fees-of-EVBox-roaming-partners?language=en_US

That's still at parity or cheaper than fuel - and ignores other TCO benefits of EVs like reduced servicing needs and lower congestion/pollution fees/taxes.

Do we need more on street charging - absolutely... this is infrastructure that pays for itself, even if only charged at 0.05 EUR over the cost of electricity.  Example: if the average post dispenses 7kW and is used overnight for 6 hours and in the day for 6 hours, then that's 1500 euros a year in profit alone for the operator.  The install cost and maintenance is easily paid for within 10 years (especially if 10+ of these are installed at once).  For a fast charger dispensing 50kWh per hour (ok weird units) in say 12 hours then it's making 30 euros per day alone at that margin - so has a 5yr or so payback time.   BUT crucially this infrastructure only works when there is high EV usage.  It is not profitable if there are only a few % of users and posts get little use.

We are in that early stage where it is still a bit chicken and egg - providers are still a little nervous about massively scaling up because they're worried the demand won't follow (and EV sales have surged but a little slower because of chip shortage issues reducing supply) - which is pushing prices a little higher than ideal.  I expect they will fall in the longer term, because competition waits for no man.  But, it's getting there; I've had my PHEV for almost 4 years now, and this is probably the best year to own an EV of any kind, so much more infrastructure, and I can't even take advantage of a lot of it because my car doesn't DC charge.
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 31, 2022, 09:15:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 08:59:07 pm ---
--- Quote ---A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).
--- End quote ---

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

--- End quote ---

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

--- End quote ---
Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.
Miyuki:
Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.


--- Quote from: bdunham7 on July 31, 2022, 04:29:10 pm ---Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty.  If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point.

--- End quote ---
It is another elephant in the room of this industry. As all car industry is heavily anti-repair, EV offered them a great weapon to make repair "impossible" (they prohibit it even when it is in most cases a simple repair that can be done by any equipped repair shop)
Minor issues like this, some small seal leak or faulty cell will render the whole car a brick.
Same as is now a big battle about if you can choose what repair facility you use for your car.


--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 31, 2022, 09:04:59 pm ---
--- Quote ---But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

--- End quote ---

A false dilemma.  We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them.  Presenting false arguments do not help.  Carbon emissions is a long term game.  We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years.  I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.

--- End quote ---
No, you won't have 50% of BEV in 5 years. There is no way to ramp battery production this fast and source raw materials for it.
The only possibility is to artificially limit the number of new cars sold. And I do not see it will pass an angry mob.

Plus of course, governments will have to slowly bring all the taxes they pose on "conventional cars" to EVs as it is a huge part of their revenue and it cannot go down
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