Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

[Cerebus]

One can always find edge cases where climate or terrain will defeat cyclists, or at least mass adoption of cycling, but most towns and cites are built in river valleys, river basins, rivers deltas or coastal plains precisely because that's where you find a climate and terrain that's best for people, building and transport.

The majority of places where the majority of people live are geographically well suited in terms of climate and terrain to cycling as practical everyday transport. Most of the barriers aren't natural but man made, often made that way because of the assumption of motorised transport as the primary way of accessing facilities and employment. e.g. I've just made a 14 mile (22 km) round trip in the car to the 'local' waste and recycling facility with a load of things that the council won't collect, and that load would have been impractical to take on a bicycle as well as a bit of a slog.

[gnuarm]

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

It should be easy enough to tell.  In the US such utilities are required to release their financials.  In fact, in most places in the US, utilities must have their rates approved.  Sometime 20 years ago or so, they were allowed to include a variable for fuel costs.  Again, with public disclosure of costs. 

[gnuarm]

A BEV needs 200Wh per km as a year round average when it is not used as a inner city roundabout (which could easely be replaced by a much more efficient electric bike).

LOL!!!  I want to see your population on bikes.  People here don't like being rained or snowed on.

Nctnico is talking about the Netherlands which is famous around the world for the amount of cycling done there, except apparently in your neck of the woods. They have 1.3 bicycles for every human being and 27% of all journeys are made by bike.

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

[gnuarm]

Cycling is a good option for people living in dense areas with flat terrain and suitable weather. So it is naturally limited to just a small percentage of big cities.

Another non-trivial issue--our BEV just had its battery replaced under warranty 7.5 years into an 8 year warranty.  If the problem (leak) had occurred at 8.5 years, I'd likely be burning gas as well at this point.

It is another elephant in the room of this industry. As all car industry is heavily anti-repair, EV offered them a great weapon to make repair "impossible" (they prohibit it even when it is in most cases a simple repair that can be done by any equipped repair shop)
Minor issues like this, some small seal leak or faulty cell will render the whole car a brick.
Same as is now a big battle about if you can choose what repair facility you use for your car.

Wow!  You like to change the goal posts.  How many examples of this can you find?

But look at it another way. Battery manufacturing capacity is not unlimited. If you can choose to build 1 BEV and save 100% emissions of one car, or build 30 hybrid, and save 30% emissions of 30 cars, which one is better?

A false dilemma.  We will build all the BEVs we want as people adopt them.  Presenting false arguments do not help.  Carbon emissions is a long term game.  We will be supplying half the US auto production as BEVs in just five years.  I can't say what people will do who believe hybrids are the way forward.

No, you won't have 50% of BEV in 5 years. There is no way to ramp battery production this fast and source raw materials for it.
The only possibility is to artificially limit the number of new cars sold. And I do not see it will pass an angry mob.

You can make any claims you want.  We will see.

Plus of course, governments will have to slowly bring all the taxes they pose on "conventional cars" to EVs as it is a huge part of their revenue and it cannot go down

"Huge"... really?  Again, you have no numbers for what constitutes "huge".  What difference if you pay the tax at the gas pump or through a direct tax?  You are really reaching.  A clear sign of desperation. 

[gnuarm]

Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity.

This is the next issue--some manufacturers have emphasized efficiency to increase range, others just bolt on ever-larger batteries to their luxobarges.  An efficient BEV should be <15kWh/100km and I don't mean less-than-car alternatives.

So which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km?  Mine is one, it gets more like 300 Wh/mi (19 kWh/100 km), but it is an outlier because it is a large luxury car.

[Miyuki]

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

[gnuarm]

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

Like I said, faulty numbers.

[bdunham7]

So which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km? 

Going by the window sticker figures and a bit of math, any of them that don't get at least a 139.6 MPG-E rating--which is actually most BEVs that aren't microcars.  The Hyundai Ioniq is an example of one that does make that rating @ 150MPG-E (city).  Our old Ford only has a 118 MPG-E rating (city) but it still has averaged 239 Wh/mile or 14.94 kWh/100kM in real life.  If you are really only using 300Wh/mile with your Model X, then you are well under the spec as well.

[gnuarm]

So which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km? 

Going by the window sticker figures and a bit of math, any of them that don't get at least a 139.6 MPG-E rating--which is actually most BEVs that aren't microcars.  The Hyundai Ioniq is an example of one that does make that rating @ 150MPG-E (city).  Our old Ford only has a 118 MPG-E rating (city) but it still has averaged 239 Wh/mile or 14.94 kWh/100kM in real life.  If you are really only using 300Wh/mile with your Model X, then you are well under the spec as well.

I don't use the MPGe ratings because they are detached from reality.  They are used to try to compare BEVs to ICE, but not in a useful way and clearly with significant variations.

I obtain anywhere from 270 Wh/mi to 370 Wh/mi depending on how much I am abusing the performance of the car.  A typical number for my model X is between 300 Wh/mi and 330 Wh/mi depending on circumstances (mostly speed).  Turns out the mileage goes up quickly in heavy traffic because of the lower speeds, and the lack of significant penalty in stop and go type driving. 

The commonly accepted number for more common models 3 and Y are 250 Wh/mi. 

I have no interest in MPGe numbers because i never use them.  Why not calculate using furlongs per fortnight?

Ultimately what matters is cost and range.  Standard consumption numbers in Wh will give you both.  With MPGe it would be very difficult.   How many gallons does your BEV hold? 

[bdunham7]

I don't use the MPGe ratings because they are detached from reality.  They are used to try to compare BEVs to ICE, but not in a useful way and clearly with significant variations...
...I have no interest in MPGe numbers because i never use them.  Why not calculate using furlongs per fortnight?

Because MPG-E numbers are what is listed on the window sticker, so that's all there is to go on for an apples-to-apples comparison between models.  And converting to Wh/mile or kWh/100kM is straightforward enough. 15kWh/100kM is 139.6 MPG-E.  Like any EPA ratings, YMMV.

[gnuarm]

I don't use the MPGe ratings because they are detached from reality.  They are used to try to compare BEVs to ICE, but not in a useful way and clearly with significant variations...
...I have no interest in MPGe numbers because i never use them.  Why not calculate using furlongs per fortnight?

Because MPG-E numbers are what is listed on the window sticker, so that's all there is to go on for an apples-to-apples comparison between models.  And converting to Wh/mile or kWh/100kM is straightforward enough. 15kWh/100kM is 139.6 MPG-E.  Like any EPA ratings, YMMV.

All you need to do is talk to people.  It's easy to get good numbers.  But I've never cared much about the tiny details.  There's too much variation in conditions to worry with be overly accurate.  4 mi/kWh is plenty good enough.  Every BEV I've seen will report the remaining charge in both kWh and distance. 

Is the MPGe rating something linear?  How do they calculate it?  I assume it has a magic fudge factor?

[bdunham7]

Is the MPGe rating something linear?  How do they calculate it?  I assume it has a magic fudge factor?

It just starts with the fundamental assumption that a gallon of gasoline is 'equivalent' to 33.7kWh.  Which it is, provided you have a 100% efficient gasoline powered water heater.

One thing about the numbers we've been talking about, including my 239kWh claim for my Focus, is that MPG-E is based on 'at the wall' power--including charging losses--whereas the car will generally report power used from the battery.  So that becomes a 'fudge factor' if you will.  But still, 139.6MPG-E simply means you drew 15kWh from the grid for every 100kM.

[tom66]

So which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km?  Mine is one, it gets more like 300 Wh/mi (19 kWh/100 km), but it is an outlier because it is a large luxury car.

Speed dependent (of course), but my PHEV Golf gets about 18kWh/100km on longer trips before engine is used.  The e-Golf gets about 15kWh/100km.  Even big SUVs like Kona electric can get less than 16kWh/100km (4 miles per kWh) when driven sensibly.

At about 120km/h then efficiency falls.  e.g. 20-22kWh/100km may be more realistic. 

The problem with EVs is torque is addictive and if you full throttle it all the time from the lights your battery will not last as long as you expect 

[gnuarm]

Is the MPGe rating something linear?  How do they calculate it?  I assume it has a magic fudge factor?

It just starts with the fundamental assumption that a gallon of gasoline is 'equivalent' to 33.7kWh.  Which it is, provided you have a 100% efficient gasoline powered water heater.

One thing about the numbers we've been talking about, including my 239kWh claim for my Focus, is that MPG-E is based on 'at the wall' power--including charging losses--whereas the car will generally report power used from the battery.  So that becomes a 'fudge factor' if you will.  But still, 139.6MPG-E simply means you drew 15kWh from the grid for every 100kM.

I suppose that's useful if you want to calculate the impact to your electric bill.  Not much use to determine range or anything else.  To me it is a pointless value.

[gnuarm]

So which BEVs can't attain 15kWh/100km?  Mine is one, it gets more like 300 Wh/mi (19 kWh/100 km), but it is an outlier because it is a large luxury car.

Speed dependent (of course), but my PHEV Golf gets about 18kWh/100km on longer trips before engine is used.  The e-Golf gets about 15kWh/100km.  Even big SUVs like Kona electric can get less than 16kWh/100km (4 miles per kWh) when driven sensibly.

At about 120km/h then efficiency falls.  e.g. 20-22kWh/100km may be more realistic. 

The problem with EVs is torque is addictive and if you full throttle it all the time from the lights your battery will not last as long as you expect 

Tires too! 

You seem to be talking about hybrids.  I have no idea how the extra weight of the engine, etc. and the added complexity affects the mileage.  I'm rather amazed that they barely beat my tank. 

Nothing personal, but hybrids are only about reducing cost of fuel.  They will never be a zero emissions solution.  BEVs may not be zero emissions currently, but as more renewable power comes online, they ultimately will be truly zero emissions. 

[nctnico]

If you don't need that much fuel, then it becomes easier to replace fuel from oil with synthetic / organic fuel that has no additional CO2 emissions.

[gnuarm]

If you don't need that much fuel, then it becomes easier to replace fuel from oil with synthetic / organic fuel that has no additional CO2 emissions.

  What does "easier" mean?  Producing gasoline from biological sources is no small task.  It takes a huge amount of energy.  It would only be viable if energy were extremely cheap and maybe not, even then.  The cost of the plant to convert the fuel is much more involved than a refinery, for example.

[nctnico]

If you don't need that much fuel, then it becomes easier to replace fuel from oil with synthetic / organic fuel that has no additional CO2 emissions.

  What does "easier" mean?

If you use less fuel with a hybrid, then you'll need less non-fossil fuel as a replacement. In turn this means that 1) synthetic / organic fuels may be significantly more expensive compared to fossil fuels while you can still get from A to B for the same price. 2) you'll need to produce less fuel in order to replace fossil fuel consumption.

And ofcourse modern day synthetic / organic fuel factories are powered using renewable sources so it doesn't really matter how much energy they need. In the end all what counts is that the price of the fuel being produced is competitive or not.

https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/feel/environment/better-air/biofuels

Bottom line is: BEVs are not the only possible solution for zero emission cars. Far from it!

[gnuarm]

If you don't need that much fuel, then it becomes easier to replace fuel from oil with synthetic / organic fuel that has no additional CO2 emissions.

  What does "easier" mean?

If you use less fuel with a hybrid, then you'll need less non-fossil fuel as a replacement. In turn this means that 1) synthetic / organic fuels may be significantly more expensive compared to fossil fuels while you can still get from A to B for the same price. 2) you'll need to produce less fuel in order to replace fossil fuel consumption.

And ofcourse modern day synthetic / organic fuel factories are powered using renewable sources so it doesn't really matter how much energy they need. In the end all what counts is that the price of the fuel being produced is competitive or not.

https://www.toyota-europe.com/world-of-toyota/feel/environment/better-air/biofuels

Bottom line is: BEVs are not the only possible solution for zero emission cars. Far from it!

No, BEVs are not the only possible choice.  We can wait for the Jetson's flying car too. 

Let me know when any of what you are talking about is ready for the market.

[nctnico]

In case you aren't aware: the fuel you buy today already consists of 5% to 10% bio-fuel! This has been the case for a long time already.

[tom66]

Nothing personal, but hybrids are only about reducing cost of fuel.  They will never be a zero emissions solution.  BEVs may not be zero emissions currently, but as more renewable power comes online, they ultimately will be truly zero emissions.

Of course, PHEV can't achieve 0% emissions if petrol is used.

But then technically neither can BEV until we have 100% emissions free power grid, and zero-leakage from air conditioning system etc.  So this is a longer term goal.

In the short term PHEV is great as a taster to electric mobility and as you say reducing fuel usage, which is still of a benefit to the environment.  In my old job my PHEV reduced my petrol usage by upwards of 85%,  in my current position I have to use the engine to commute back but I still get at least 50% reduction compared to similar sized vehicle and all local trips are electric only.

I would definitely get a BEV as soon as one is practical but I have other priorities for my money right now.  Namely I have to buy our house before spending any more money on silly toys.  Given what I have seen I would probably get a VW ID.3 but I will give the Peugeot e-208 a try as well.  I am attracted by the 204 PS motor in the ID.3 (it is equally as fast as my GTE hybrid) because I like a faster car...  But it is rather expensive and the payback time will be very lengthy.

[tom66]

The problem with synfuels for mobility is they will likely cost 3-4x the cost of fossil fuels, based on the latest research I read.  So equivalent to $400 per barrel oil costs.  That may allow them to be used for aviation (with a corresponding cost in the ticket price!)  but I think it will be very difficult to sell them for general transportation.  Also biofuels produced from ethanol may be worse than using fossil fuel given the land use changes required to accommodate extra crops.  If the ethanol is produced by a synthesis process using modified algae then it may work out but last I heard these projects were stalling with the difficulty of getting the algae to produce sufficient quantities to be economically viable.

[edy]

Interesting discussion so far...

So another thing I'd like to bring up is that oil prices can (and have) significantly swung in both directions in the past, creating uncertainty to consumer behaviour which (let's face it) has more to do with cost than trying to save the planet. How and why would car manufacturers with obvious large investment costs in production lines and difficulty "pivoting" on models/designs be able to predict how to best drive their profit-margins?

For example, latest oil barrel prices have been up in the $90-100 range. Not long ago, if you remember, a barrel of oil was "negative" (yes I know that was a sort of economic glitch). The pandemic also killed oil prices. OPEC and others can fix prices, artificially elevating or flooding the market. The Ukraine war is obviously another huge factor. Sure, the last few months everybody is worrying about gas prices and there is more interest in fuel-efficient cars. But when during the typical lifespan of a vehicle, the oil barrel price can range by a factor of 3-4x up and down, who is looking at this when deciding their purchase?

[tszaboo]

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

Like I said, faulty numbers.

https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car
I picked a number in the middle.
If you are going to do a "but but but" then include charger efficiency and then you end up with this number.

[gnuarm]

Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

Like I said, faulty numbers.

https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car
I picked a number in the middle.
If you are going to do a "but but but" then include charger efficiency and then you end up with this number.

I don't really care what numbers you use.  They are wrong.  Today's BEVs get around  4-5 miles per kWh.  Convert that to kWh/100km or whatever unit you prefer, but if you start with faulty numbers, you won't get a meaningful result.

I don't know anything about your database because it doesn't load.

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