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Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
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tom66:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 02, 2022, 12:53:59 pm ---Nothing personal, but hybrids are only about reducing cost of fuel.  They will never be a zero emissions solution.  BEVs may not be zero emissions currently, but as more renewable power comes online, they ultimately will be truly zero emissions.

--- End quote ---

Of course, PHEV can't achieve 0% emissions if petrol is used.

But then technically neither can BEV until we have 100% emissions free power grid, and zero-leakage from air conditioning system etc.  So this is a longer term goal.

In the short term PHEV is great as a taster to electric mobility and as you say reducing fuel usage, which is still of a benefit to the environment.  In my old job my PHEV reduced my petrol usage by upwards of 85%,  in my current position I have to use the engine to commute back but I still get at least 50% reduction compared to similar sized vehicle and all local trips are electric only.

I would definitely get a BEV as soon as one is practical but I have other priorities for my money right now.  Namely I have to buy our house before spending any more money on silly toys.  Given what I have seen I would probably get a VW ID.3 but I will give the Peugeot e-208 a try as well.  I am attracted by the 204 PS motor in the ID.3 (it is equally as fast as my GTE hybrid) because I like a faster car...  But it is rather expensive and the payback time will be very lengthy.
tom66:
The problem with synfuels for mobility is they will likely cost 3-4x the cost of fossil fuels, based on the latest research I read.  So equivalent to $400 per barrel oil costs.  That may allow them to be used for aviation (with a corresponding cost in the ticket price!)  but I think it will be very difficult to sell them for general transportation.  Also biofuels produced from ethanol may be worse than using fossil fuel given the land use changes required to accommodate extra crops.  If the ethanol is produced by a synthesis process using modified algae then it may work out but last I heard these projects were stalling with the difficulty of getting the algae to produce sufficient quantities to be economically viable.
edy:
Interesting discussion so far...

So another thing I'd like to bring up is that oil prices can (and have) significantly swung in both directions in the past, creating uncertainty to consumer behaviour which (let's face it) has more to do with cost than trying to save the planet. How and why would car manufacturers with obvious large investment costs in production lines and difficulty "pivoting" on models/designs be able to predict how to best drive their profit-margins?

For example, latest oil barrel prices have been up in the $90-100 range. Not long ago, if you remember, a barrel of oil was "negative" (yes I know that was a sort of economic glitch). The pandemic also killed oil prices. OPEC and others can fix prices, artificially elevating or flooding the market. The Ukraine war is obviously another huge factor. Sure, the last few months everybody is worrying about gas prices and there is more interest in fuel-efficient cars. But when during the typical lifespan of a vehicle, the oil barrel price can range by a factor of 3-4x up and down, who is looking at this when deciding their purchase?





tszaboo:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:22:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 09:21:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:07:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 am ---Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

--- End quote ---

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

--- End quote ---
I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

--- End quote ---

Like I said, faulty numbers.

--- End quote ---
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car
I picked a number in the middle.
If you are going to do a "but but but" then include charger efficiency and then you end up with this number.
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 02, 2022, 09:23:16 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:22:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 01, 2022, 09:21:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on August 01, 2022, 09:07:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 01, 2022, 10:24:04 am ---Its more of a situation with the current electricity prices. Right now I got a contract at 0.4 EUR/KWh. Considering an electric car uses 22KWh for 100 KM, this is 8.8EUR in electricity. A hybrid would have let's say 4.5L fuel usage, resulting about ~10 EUR for the same trip, since fuel costs somewhere around 2.2EUR/L.
I think right now it's probably cheaper to run your house from a diesel generator than to pay for these absolutely ridiculous electricity prices. I cannot wait for the gov. to drop the hammer on these companies because for sure they are price gauging the situation. If I wouldn't have my solar panels I would be absolutely upset.

--- End quote ---

I think your numbers are faulty.  22 kWh/100 km is around 350 Wh/mi.  That is a high average consumption, even for my model X which is the BEV equivalent of the US family station wagon (now it's a van or large SUV).   Most BEVs are more in the 4-5 mi/kWhr, 200-250 Wh/mi.  Try your calculations with those numbers.

--- End quote ---
I know "early" EVs from the 80s and 90s were around 20-25 kWh/100 km with lead acid batteries
And it was small cars like VW Golf

--- End quote ---

Like I said, faulty numbers.

--- End quote ---
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car
I picked a number in the middle.
If you are going to do a "but but but" then include charger efficiency and then you end up with this number.

--- End quote ---

I don't really care what numbers you use.  They are wrong.  Today's BEVs get around  4-5 miles per kWh.  Convert that to kWh/100km or whatever unit you prefer, but if you start with faulty numbers, you won't get a meaningful result.

I don't know anything about your database because it doesn't load.

The connection has timed out
An error occurred during a connection to ev-database.org.
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