Author Topic: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...  (Read 44646 times)

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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #150 on: August 07, 2022, 06:58:41 pm »
Maybe you should read the news a bit more in-depth. There are hydrogen storage and production projects in various states allover the world in order to supply energy across the globe. This is one close at home for me: https://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

Yes, there are projects for generating hydrogen.  None of them are in competition with Petroleum, or more importantly, none are in competition with BEVs in any way.


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And you are wrong about oil being an energy source. It isn't; it is stored solar energy.

LOL!!!  I actually laughed at that one.  When you decide to get serious, let me know and we can continue the discussion.  LOL!


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And you are also wrong about electricity being a primary energy form. It is a handy intermediary form for local use but storage and/or transport over long distances is expensive.

Yeah, it seems I have forgotten the correct term.  Energy has various forms which are ranked by how easily they can be turned into others.  Electrical is one of the highest, being easy to turn into mechanical, thermal, chemical and many other forms of energy.  Heat is the lowest, being hard to turn into other forms. 

Anyone know the proper adjective?  A Google search did not find it.  It did find many energy drinks, however.


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Nuclear energy is the closest we can get to a primary energy source on earth.

A pointless distinction however. 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #151 on: August 07, 2022, 07:00:02 pm »
A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.

There speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive. I'm a petrol head of long standing, having driven a range of cars and motorbikes, for the cars mostly "performance" cars including some serious exotica and I like driving EVs. My PHEV gets driven almost exclusively in EV mode where it only has 66kW/88bhp available to drag its 1735 kg kerb weight around, but it doesn't feel like "only" 38kW/51bhp per tonne, it feels more responsive and tractable than the 130bhp/tonne sports car it replaced and that I liked so much, and couldn't find anything comparable in performance or handling, that I've stuck to driving for the last 22 years.

Then you add not having to listen to a petrol or diesel engine drone at you all the time, or the vibrations from the same, and it's a different world. Quiet, fast, calm, what's not to like.

+1
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #152 on: August 07, 2022, 07:21:03 pm »
Maybe you should read the news a bit more in-depth. There are hydrogen storage and production projects in various states allover the world in order to supply energy across the globe. This is one close at home for me: https://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

Yes, there are projects for generating hydrogen.  None of them are in competition with Petroleum, or more importantly, none are in competition with BEVs in any way.
Not yet but the wheels are in motion.
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And you are wrong about oil being an energy source. It isn't; it is stored solar energy.

LOL!!!  I actually laughed at that one.  When you decide to get serious, let me know and we can continue the discussion.  LOL!
So, where does oil come from according to you?
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #153 on: August 07, 2022, 07:27:26 pm »
A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.

There speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive.
That remark misses the point by a mile...  :palm: Look at resource and scalability issues of BEVs. If it would have made sense for my to drive in a BEV I'd would have but it doesn't. Despite living in a country that is among the few countries that has the highest percentage of BEVs driving around.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 07:30:16 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #154 on: August 07, 2022, 08:18:20 pm »
A large part of the popularity of BEVs is based on hype.

There speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive.
That remark misses the point by a mile...  :palm: Look at resource and scalability issues of BEVs. If it would have made sense for my to drive in a BEV I'd would have but it doesn't. Despite living in a country that is among the few countries that has the highest percentage of BEVs driving around.

None of which is about "popularity".

If you wanted to ride a mile you'd need five horses you keep changing between them so often.  :-DD
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #155 on: August 07, 2022, 09:39:22 pm »
There speaks a man who hasn't driven one, or at least lived with one for a while. The popularity, among those who have driven them, is that they are good to drive. I'm a petrol head of long standing, having driven a range of cars and motorbikes, for the cars mostly "performance" cars including some serious exotica and I like driving EVs. My PHEV gets driven almost exclusively in EV mode where it only has 66kW/88bhp available to drag its 1735 kg kerb weight around, but it doesn't feel like "only" 38kW/51bhp per tonne, it feels more responsive and tractable than the 130bhp/tonne sports car it replaced and that I liked so much, and couldn't find anything comparable in performance or handling, that I've stuck to driving for the last 22 years.

Very much the same for my GTE.  It's little 100hp electric motor provides more than enough power for zipping around the city.  It has a six-speed auto gearbox which the motor operates through (present only because it's a hybrid, and, y'know, ICE power-bands kind of suck) which is the only cause of any of the latency... usually the gearbox hasn't managed to select the lowest gear needed for max torque.  (I've taken to blipping the gearbox down when approaching roundabouts, etc.  The instant torque is very useful there if you spot a gap on the approach.)

I cannot wait to replace it with something fully electric because I know it will just be better to drive.  The gearbox is a compromise. 

I used to drive a five-speed naturally aspirated petrol engine car, which I thought was a nice car to drive.  But, it took one test drive of an EV - a Nissan Leaf at the time, back in 2017 - to convince me that electric was the future. 
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #156 on: August 07, 2022, 11:28:41 pm »
Maybe you should read the news a bit more in-depth. There are hydrogen storage and production projects in various states allover the world in order to supply energy across the globe. This is one close at home for me: https://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2022/shell-to-start-building-europes-largest-renewable-hydrogen-plant.html

Yes, there are projects for generating hydrogen.  None of them are in competition with Petroleum, or more importantly, none are in competition with BEVs in any way.
Not yet but the wheels are in motion.
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And you are wrong about oil being an energy source. It isn't; it is stored solar energy.

LOL!!!  I actually laughed at that one.  When you decide to get serious, let me know and we can continue the discussion.  LOL!
So, where does oil come from according to you?

The point is no one sane gives a durn.  Petroleum is as much an energy source as any.  As much as the sun, as much as an atom, as much as coal.  We dig it from the ground and burn it to make heat which we then, with low efficiencies, turn into useful energy. 

Hydrogen doesn't even exist as a pure substance until we free it from methane or water by adding copious quantities of energy and in the case of methane, release copious quantities of carbon into the air. 

When hydrogen can be produced at a price equivalent to even $4 a gallon gasoline, without releasing carbon into the air, come back and tell us about it.  Until then, hydrogen is stillborn. 
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #157 on: August 11, 2022, 04:02:04 pm »
I just read an article about how car manufacturers are trying to make everything a "subscription" to drive future revenue, from installed hardware (that you choose whether to use or not) to software features (especially "cloud-connected" stuff). Knowing that, how will it impact the future owner-subscription model for automobiles and green-energy?

For example, would we essentially have a fleet of eco-friendly vehicles lined up to use in a neighbourhood and share them between people? Perhaps apartment blocks could have a scheduling system where you can reserve the car and pay for certain time using it. Would we be paying per mile driven? Would anyone even own their electric or hybrid vehicles, or would car manufacturers actually embed eco-friendly features and then disable them unless paying a subscription to utilize them (e.g. a larger-capacity battery but you can't use most of it).

So far we have been thinking "in the box" regarding the same standard private vehicle ownership model and commuting to work, stores, for leisure, etc. But what sort of paradigm-shifting future plans exist for transportation? More people working and shopping from home, via the "Metaverse" can also reduce fuel consumption. Ride-sharing and other modes of transportation to reduce traffic congestion, which also wastes a ton of fuel (how many single-passenger vehicles occupying the roads). Yes we can work on making more fuel-efficient cars but that will eventually hit a limit.... it is only one part of a multi-pronged approach. I feel like other ways to reduce transportation in general, like increasing efficiency of existing modes (not in terms of fuel but eliminating single-passengers in 5 ton vehicles, more carpooling, store deliveries, pooled shipping, lighter/smaller 1-2 passenger vehicles like weather-covered e-bikes, etc) will have more impact.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 04:18:45 pm by edy »
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #158 on: August 11, 2022, 04:37:33 pm »
Self driving vehicles really change the dynamics.

If you use a car a lot it is more practical to self drive - taxi drivers are a significant part of the cost of a taxi ride.  SDCs eliminate that cost (sorry, drivers) but at same time allow packetisation of traffic into smaller services.  You could easily have 1-2 seater vehicles for short single person trips and 5-7 seater vehicles for family trips.  A trip to IKEA could be one way in the microcar and the way back in an autovan.  Suddenly huge parking lots become small drop off / pick up areas and all of that tarmac gets used for actual businesses and homes.

Of course, SDCs don't really exist yet, but I do think that from 2030 or so they will start to play a significant role in our transport infrastructure.  Private cars will still exist especially for areas much less profitable to serve with SDCs (very rural areas) and there will be people who like driving or want a customised vehicle / have accessibility needs.  But a lot of car ownership is about convenience and the only thing more convenient than owning a car is all of the benefits of a car without actually having to park it on your drive.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #159 on: August 11, 2022, 04:44:32 pm »
I just read an article about how car manufacturers are trying to make everything a "subscription" to drive future revenue, from installed hardware (that you choose whether to use or not) to software features (especially "cloud-connected" stuff). Knowing that, how will it impact the future owner-subscription model for automobiles and green-energy?

I will refuse to buy any car that has a subscription model for features.


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For example, would we essentially have a fleet of eco-friendly vehicles lined up to use in a neighbourhood and share them between people? Perhaps apartment blocks could have a scheduling system where you can reserve the car and pay for certain time using it. Would we be paying per mile driven? Would anyone even own their electric or hybrid vehicles, or would car manufacturers actually embed eco-friendly features and then disable them unless paying a subscription to utilize them (e.g. a larger-capacity battery but you can't use most of it).

Subscription model for car features and sharing cars are two different things.  There are already places that let you "rent" shared cars via several different payment plans.  That's great for people who mostly don't need to own a car, but many people do need a car every day for commuting.


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So far we have been thinking "in the box" regarding the same standard private vehicle ownership model and commuting to work, stores, for leisure, etc. But what sort of paradigm-shifting future plans exist for transportation?

Public transportation is the obvious way to commute to work, but it has convenience issues.   It is also a one time improvement.  Once everyone is commuting by public transportation, you've reached the minimum of energy use and pollution.  So it's not a ongoing improvement.  Renewable energy can be ongoing as more and more aspects of our energy use is converted.


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More people working and shopping from home, via the "Metaverse" can also reduce fuel consumption. Ride-sharing and other modes of transportation to reduce traffic congestion, which also wastes a ton of fuel (how many single-passenger vehicles occupying the roads). Yes we can work on making more fuel-efficient cars but that will eventually hit a limit.... it is only one part of a multi-pronged approach. I feel like other ways to reduce transportation in general, like increasing efficiency of existing modes (not in terms of fuel but eliminating single-passengers in 5 ton vehicles, more carpooling, store deliveries, pooled shipping, lighter/smaller 1-2 passenger vehicles like weather-covered e-bikes, etc) will have more impact.

I don't know that we need to reduce energy use as much as simply finding ways to make it cleaner. 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #160 on: August 11, 2022, 04:48:53 pm »
But a lot of car ownership is about convenience and the only thing more convenient than owning a car is all of the benefits of a car without actually having to park it on your drive.
That sounds reasonable until you have to pay for it. What you describe is what is called a taxi. I think you will be surprised how small the part 'labour costs' is for a ride in a taxi. IOW: self driving cars as a rental form is not going to be cheaper. Especially if you are sensible with your money and buy a used car.
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Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #161 on: August 11, 2022, 04:55:49 pm »
That sounds reasonable until you have to pay for it. What you describe is what is called a taxi. I think you will be surprised how small the part 'labour costs' is for a ride in a taxi. IOW: self driving cars as a rental form is not going to be cheaper. Especially if you are sensible with your money and buy a used car.

I see no reason that a SDC would be more expensive than owning your own car, especially when you consider insurance, maintenance, breakdowns etc.

A taxi driver around here makes about £15 per hour if busy, if they do 30 mph average that's 50p per mile.  Most taxi companies charge about 80p-£1 per mile around here.  And there's no reason an SDC would need to be a new vehicle - they could easily do 500k miles before being scrapped if designed right. 
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #162 on: August 11, 2022, 05:07:04 pm »
That sounds reasonable until you have to pay for it. What you describe is what is called a taxi. I think you will be surprised how small the part 'labour costs' is for a ride in a taxi. IOW: self driving cars as a rental form is not going to be cheaper. Especially if you are sensible with your money and buy a used car.

Uber and its ilk have grossly mislead people as to the actual costs of this type of arrangement by initially subsidizing their operations with investor cash.  They aren't so cheap anymore as they try to transition to a profitable model.  One of the things I've noticed is that they are allowing older and more decrepit cars to be used as their 'independent' drivers have realized they aren't getting paid enough to account for the depreciation and wear on a newer car.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #163 on: August 11, 2022, 05:21:38 pm »
I see no reason that a SDC would be more expensive than owning your own car, especially when you consider insurance, maintenance, breakdowns etc.

A taxi driver around here makes about £15 per hour if busy, if they do 30 mph average that's 50p per mile.  Most taxi companies charge about 80p-£1 per mile around here.  And there's no reason an SDC would need to be a new vehicle - they could easily do 500k miles before being scrapped if designed right.

YMMV, but my all-in costs per mile are much less than $1/mile and taxi/ride services are much more than $1/mile every time I've used them.  And while a service may be more convenient in some cases--airport runs, congested cities with no parking, etc, it is much less convenient for everyday use in a suburban environment.  I drive my own car from my driveway to the dentist/grocery/whatever and I have zero waiting time and can change my itinerary at will.  Again, YMMV.

Why would an SDC last longer than any other car?  Is that simply based on using the car more, so the time effects are lessened compared to mileage?  500K miles lifetime is going to require either a lot of maintenance or a different vehicle design even in a shortened timeframe due to high usage.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #164 on: August 11, 2022, 06:13:30 pm »
That sounds reasonable until you have to pay for it. What you describe is what is called a taxi. I think you will be surprised how small the part 'labour costs' is for a ride in a taxi. IOW: self driving cars as a rental form is not going to be cheaper. Especially if you are sensible with your money and buy a used car.

I see no reason that a SDC would be more expensive than owning your own car, especially when you consider insurance, maintenance, breakdowns etc.
My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 06:52:37 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #165 on: August 12, 2022, 01:37:21 pm »
In Prague, there is for example Anytime Carsharing
They use Toyota hybrids
Just have an app and use it as a key to the car. Can use any of their vehicles and can leave them anywhere in the city.
And pay either by minutes used or for longer rentals for days + distance (both have fuel included)
It is pretty convenient if the service does not have any issues or not have a problem with a car. As customer service has not the best review.
If you do not use the car daily it is cheaper than owning a comparable car. And for most inner city commute is better to use public transport (not all places are reachable by public transport). So technically there is little reason to own a car except people want to own one as it is a status symbol.
But this can work only in densely populated areas and not in outer suburbs and villages.
And for daily drivers, this might be a good solution in some cases.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #166 on: August 12, 2022, 01:52:55 pm »
My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.)  or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)

I do think a well built electric SDC could achieve 500k miles with ordinary maintenance.  The battery pack or chassis perforation from rust would be the most common reasons to scrap a vehicle IMO.  Ultimately it would cost less to sporadically hire one than to leave a car on your driveway.

PS I am pro car ownership for now as obviously SDCs are well off being practical, but I do think there will be a massive transition towards them once they become practical alternatives to owning a car.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #167 on: August 12, 2022, 11:14:23 pm »
My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
Its like you two have been here before.....
Not to mention, EVs don't need to charge at 6pm, like when you might put the oven on, which creates a lot of demand. EVs can charge at 2am, parked on your driveway,
Can you please get me a driveway? And while you are at it, thousands of people that live in my neighbourhood would like one as well. And make it two driveways for the households with two cars.
nctnico is on the side of parking should be provided for free/subsidised by others.

My car (reasonably sized station wagon) costs me around 0.21 euro per km all in while not skimping on any maintenance. Next car is going to be cheaper due to lower fuel consumption.

Are you truly including all of the other costs of a car?

- Space to park it, either on a driveway or an area with sufficient street parking, which influences where you can afford to live
- Opportunity-cost and actual cost from servicing (take it in for a service, emissions test etc.)  or if you do as much of this yourself, the time cost
- Cost of a breakdown, like a large repair bill if something expensive goes wrong
- Taxes and disincentives towards driving (parking fees, toll fees to enter city centres)

I do think a well built electric SDC could achieve 500k miles with ordinary maintenance.  The battery pack or chassis perforation from rust would be the most common reasons to scrap a vehicle IMO.  Ultimately it would cost less to sporadically hire one than to leave a car on your driveway.
I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.

In Australia the fixed costs of ownership dominate over the variable costs for most people, which is a perverse incentive to drive more if you do own a car (and little political will to change that). At 12,000km/year (average use) in an older car the rough numbers averaged over the fleet of vehicles in my garage
Fuel: $1000
Maintenance: $1200
Registration: $950
Comprehensive Insurance: $400
Garage parking: $3200
Depreciation: $1000
Breakdowns: $200

66c AUD/km

the offical government allowance for car use (tax rebate) is 78c/km
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Income-and-deductions-for-business/Deductions/Deductions-for-motor-vehicle-expenses/Cents-per-kilometre-method/
they know what it actually costs ;)
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #168 on: August 12, 2022, 11:58:00 pm »
I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.

Any examples?  My (extensive) experience tells me that vehicles don't get that far without both a significant repair budget and a willingness to allow the overall condition of the vehicle to deteriorate a bit.  I've seen some Prius taxis still running around at 300K miles, but there is some survivor bias built into those types of anecdotes.

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they know what it actually costs ;)

No, they really don't.   The tax agency numbers are typically based on reasonable costs for an average newer vehicle.  Your numbers and their numbers may be wildly off the mark for others.  In your example, registration and parking are over half your total cost.  For me and many others, those are nearly nil.

But my real puzzlement is how many people use their cars in a way that they can always use a service instead?  And it has to be 'always', since the whole rationale requires divesting yourself of the personally owned car to save the fixed expenses.  Suppose we want to drive to the beach and have a picnic, then drive up the coast and have dinner and then stay someplace?  Where do we keep the chairs, beach umbrella and picnic basket while we're having dinner?  Do we lug them all into a hotel room instead of leaving them in the trunk of our personal car?
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Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #169 on: August 13, 2022, 12:12:59 am »
they know what it actually costs ;)
No, they really don't.   The tax agency numbers are typically based on reasonable costs for an average newer vehicle.  Your numbers and their numbers may be wildly off the mark for others.  In your example, registration and parking are over half your total cost.  For me and many others, those are nearly nil.
You in some other country, sure. That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).

That's what registration and parking actually cost, here in this location. They might be different for you, great, add in your averaged figures and provide some other data points. Some countries bias the cost more towards fixed costs and others more toward variable costs. But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #170 on: August 13, 2022, 12:29:04 am »
I know of some fossil vehicle models that routinely do 500k without major repairs, so it is possible to build vehicles like that.
Any examples?  My (extensive) experience tells me that vehicles don't get that far without both a significant repair budget and a willingness to allow the overall condition of the vehicle to deteriorate a bit.  I've seen some Prius taxis still running around at 300K miles, but there is some survivor bias built into those types of anecdotes.
I'm not doxxing myself by providing the models of the vehicles I have. US cars and salty snow regions are famous for being short lived, out in arid Australia away from the salt breezes on the coast cars can and do last.  In the local area we have many 25-40 year old cars in use as daily drivers, which is completely unimaginable for those from salt land/belt. The average age of a car in Australia is over 10 years old:
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/motor-vehicle-census-australia/latest-release

Taxi and fleet operators have been able to weed out the long running models pretty well. Its somewhat dependent on the owner/driver and how they treat their car, servicing and driving styles contribute which is where fleet/taxi operators tend to have better servicing records/efforts.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #171 on: August 13, 2022, 01:34:53 am »
That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).

It isn't necessary to change countries to prove this wrong, at least in the way that I meant that it was wrong--there is no single number that works for everyone.  All you would have to do is drive twice as far every year and your numbers would change drastically.  So their numbers may work for many 'average' cases, but they can't work for everyone.  Here the rate is $0.625/mile and I can easily beat that and my neighbor with his new SUV can't even dream of a number that low.  As they say, YMMV.  Perhaps an Uber driver with a newer economy sedan might get close to that over a 5-year period.  But the tails are fat.

Quote
But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.

Unless you are building a new civilization on Mars or are just waxing eloquent on philosophical economics, you need to talk about incremental costs when it comes to changing the status quo.  I have a garage, a driveway and available street parking.  My current and future incremental costs for these are zero regardless of what the inputs were long ago or what expenses might be attributed to them in the future as they aren't going away even if my cars do.  Many people will be in this same boat.

I don't think specifying a vehicle would be doxxing your self, but I can give you simple numbers for our very-low-usage vehicle that we only use for long trips.  2010 Honda Accord, we've had it 12 years and driven it 42k miles.  It cost $22500 and is now worth maybe $10K.  All maintenance including a set of tires has been less than $2400.  Insurance is ~ $500/year and registration is <$200.  It gets 30MPG, so at $4/gallon (historical average) that is

Depreciation    $1000
Insurance           500
Maintenance       200
Registration        200
Fuel                 ~470

Total                 2370

2370/3500 = ~$0.68/mile.

And that is for a nice, large car that I can sleep in if I have to, stores all of our luggage and beach stuff when we travel and is available at all times--even peak service times--just for me.  Even better, the incremental cost of additional mileage is much lower than that 0.68 number so I have no issues going on a long trip if I want to.  I'll be heading to Arizona on a 1000-mile roundtrip drive (to pick up my new Tek 576 from Goodwill) and the incremental cost of those miles will be less than $0.25/mile, just fuel, tire wear and a bit of oil life.

 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #172 on: August 13, 2022, 02:41:05 am »
But to say parking has zero cost is only true for those people using on street parking, which does have a cost to others and by using it for "free" is a subsidy on the operating cost of a vehicle.
Unless you are building a new civilization on Mars or are just waxing eloquent on philosophical economics, you need to talk about incremental costs when it comes to changing the status quo.  I have a garage, a driveway and available street parking.  My current and future incremental costs for these are zero regardless of what the inputs were long ago or what expenses might be attributed to them in the future as they aren't going away even if my cars do.  Many people will be in this same boat.
That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space. Incremental cost of nothing is plainly wrong when land and buildings have a cost, that should be amortised/apportioned over their use.

If the council stopped all free on street parking and charged residents permits (as other areas do) I would pay lower rates or the services would increase, nothing needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Again, opportunity cost, vs your misleading assertion of no incremental value. Free parking is a huge subsidy to those who use it when land prices are around $1000/m2. An on road car parking space needs 14m2 in the local regulations, so for an 8% return (with zero other costs) around $840 per year for the crappiest form of parking. I'd happily buy the street parking space in front of my house and extend the verge.

Common situation in Australia where there is free on street parking... people fill their garages as storage and park in the driveway or on the street. People dont leave their buildings empty and derive no value from it.

That doesn't say that the Australian tax department has a bad handle on what a car costs to operate, its very very close to real world figures (have checked with an accountant who do this for their clients).
It isn't necessary to change countries to prove this wrong, at least in the way that I meant that it was wrong--there is no single number that works for everyone.  All you would have to do is drive twice as far every year and your numbers would change drastically.  So their numbers may work for many 'average' cases, but they can't work for everyone.
I explicitly stated average, and it happens that the vehicles here are almost on that average. Of course other country, other situation, other economics radically change the numbers.

they know what it actually costs ;)
No, they really don't.
The Australian tax department do know what it costs to run a car in Australia, its very very close to the fairly average use case of the vehicles I operate.

 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #173 on: August 13, 2022, 03:45:58 am »
]That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space.

So suppose I ditched all my cars and signed up for your perpetual SDC service.  What productive and paying uses would I have for my garage and driveway?  I don't live in SF or Manhattan where you can sell parking spaces for $100K+.  And being able to acquire and store a larger oscilloscope collection does not count as a paying use!

You can always use a 'choice' of accounting methods to prove a point, just like companies magically use 'goodwill' to even out their balance sheets when they are actually bankrupt from a future cash flow vantage point.  We're talking about the practicality and economics of an imagined 500k maintenance free driverless shared car replacing my actual cars and everyone else's.  If you are going to pencil it out to see if people will bite and if the numbers work, you have to use methods that describe what actually can and will happen in particular instances.  Saying I'll be ahead by thousands every year because I'm not using my driveway is the same accounting that says a bankrupt company is going to be able to pay their bonds with shareholder equity and goodwill. 

Rideshares and taxis work well in lieu of personally owned vehicles in congested urban areas if other public transportation doesn't work well.  Suburban USA, not so much.  Rural USA, no way in hell.  I'm guessing it isn't so much different in other countries that I've observed, but I'd be happy to defer to those that live there.   
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...
« Reply #174 on: August 13, 2022, 05:50:24 am »
]That is your choice of accounting method, which does nothing to make my explicitly stated choice of accounting method any less correct. Parking space has a market cost, if someone parking a car in a garage left it empty with nothing in its place that's a poor use of a resource, which has a opportunity cost since there are other productive (and paying) uses for that space.
Saying I'll be ahead by thousands every year because I'm not using my driveway is the same accounting that says a bankrupt company is going to be able to pay their bonds with shareholder equity and goodwill.
You have paid for that garage space, but you refuse to apportion any cost to the car parking when you talk about the cost of owning/operating a car. Perhaps the purchase of the car should be "zero" as you already have it and aren't planning on selling it? Equally stupid.

For people who have access to car sharing, they dont buy a garage in the first place. Hence the significant cost savings that you and others are trying to pretend aren't there. You're putting car parking "off the books" which is plainly incorrect as there is a cost.
 
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