Confused about PHEV, Hybrids, etc...

[Someone]

That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

It does solve the need, if it's public charging.  Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week.  So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.

Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.

I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread.
person A) car parking has no cost
person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways

For the UK numbers, here's what I can find, referenced for those who insist (but never seem to provide themselves), pre-pandemic...
Annual distance per car 7000 ish/something miles (20 miles per day)
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts09-vehicle-mileage-and-occupancy
https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data-research-and-analysis/
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-car-mileage-uk
33 million cars
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-tables
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/number-cars-great-britain

so with the generous 20kWh/100km, cars evenly spreading their charging is 8GW additional load, incremental increase of 21% over 38GW:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/electricity-statistics
an average of 240W per car. It is very easy to imagine most of those cars being able to be hooked up to a domestic scale 2.4kW charge point for at least 1/10 of their life. On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.

Replacing infrastructure, petrol stations (which are servicing the current car fleets need for energy). Number of cars per petrol station 4,000:
https://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/racf_deloitte-fuel_retail-jan13.pdf
Petrol stations aren't big enough to work as parking for slow charging (10%, 400 cars per site), at a moderate 10kW rate it would be squeezy (2.5%, 100 cars per site) but not unimaginable for a multi-storey car park or car stackers.

[bdunham7]

]I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread.
person A) car parking has no cost
person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways

Not ridiculous nor extreme, just different cases.

For some, parking has no ongoing incremental cost.  I think I'm in that category, but if you protest you can consider the rancher in Montana. 

If I lived in Manhattan, I'd probably be person B. 

Everyone's case is different and most people aren't at the average or median of whatever statistic you are quoting at the moment.  I could look around my neighborhood of sunny single-family homes and conclude that everyone can get a BEV and solar panels to charge it, just like me.  But I've been enough places to realize that the model that works pretty well here might be problematic elsewhere.  What is amusing to me is that someone in different circumstances than you can have solar, a BEV and use rideshare--so they're completely familiar with them all and aren't luddites--but when they point out issues and limitations you dismiss that as 'blinkered thinking' or whatever. 

On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.

Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

[Someone]

On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.

Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

You cant leave vehicle charging points as free use, they require some monetising or people will find all sorts of creative ways to use the free power. Parking meters in denser areas are already grid connected here so its not some enormous new additional cost out of nowhere. Convincing people they will have to pay for these things seems to be the enormous road-block. If you aren't owning or paying for your parking I have zero sympathy for your lack of options, since its likely others are already paying/subsidising on your behalf.

We have parking at work with electric charging /s for some odd reason /s it's charged both per time of use, and per unit of energy charged.

]I cant stop laughing at the ridiculous extremes in this thread.
person A) car parking has no cost
person B) car parking is too expensive and the free alternative is too costly in other ways

Not ridiculous nor extreme, just different cases.

For some, parking has no ongoing incremental cost.  I think I'm in that category, but if you protest you can consider the rancher in Montana.

walking back and moving your goalposts now again? The vast majority of people have a cost for parking, it varies but its stupid to say its zero. The argument was clearly framed as an opportunity cost across lifetime, which you flatly disputed and keep coming back nosily to say how you were right all along... when you were always talking about something entirely different, and forgot to actually frame that, instead just going straight for claiming what I'm saying/quoting/referencing is "wrong".

Freedom to park your car in a convenient location is a cost, the infrastructure to do so (including charging) is a cost borne by yourself or the community. That it has been "free" for people has distorted their view, because it was never free.

[bdunham7]

That it has been "free" for people has distorted their view, because it was never free.

I think I've explained it clearly enough, but for many people they are paying for parking whether they use it or not.  And I've explained how I account for that.   It's not a distorted view, it is a cash accounting view.

But since you insist that parking is a vital part of the equation and that people's 'life choices' should be based at least in part on parking options, how about the air?  An ICE uses 14 times as much air by weight as it does fuel.  Since we account for fuel costs, why not the air?

[gnuarm]

You also seem to manage to completely ignore that I'm an EV driver and lecture me as if I've no clue about how they charge, how much charge they need, when they need it etc. etc.

So where do you charge?

[gnuarm]

On street charging looks plausible and cheap from an infrastructure standpoint, usual public infrastructure issues of vandalism and how to monetise the service.

Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

You cant leave vehicle charging points as free use, they require some monetising or people will find all sorts of creative ways to use the free power.

That's not realistic.  Why do you think this can not be done in a way that precludes improper use?  Do you think people will design vehicles with extra batteries that allow them to steal $5.00 of electricity by sitting out all night charging?  Then they can power their home for a few hours during the day?  Ok, maybe power where you are is a bit more expensive and we are talking about $10 a day.  But it requires a $5,000 battery to implement it.  Yeah, a lot of that is going to happen. 

Parking meters in denser areas are already grid connected here so its not some enormous new additional cost out of nowhere. Convincing people they will have to pay for these things seems to be the enormous road-block. If you aren't owning or paying for your parking I have zero sympathy for your lack of options, since its likely others are already paying/subsidising on your behalf.

  Paying for what???

[EEVblog]

Hand-waving much?  Cheap?  Really?  How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume. And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

EV owners know all too well the litter of charging companies (and their infrastruture) that have gone bust. I think Australia has at least two defunct ones.

[sokoloff]

How about $3K to 10K per station, with perhaps that price coming down some with volume.  And forget monetizing it, nobody makes money selling EV charging.

Around here (New England, but appears to US-wide), DC fast charging is charged at around 2x the cost of electricity.

A lot of office park 6.6kW chargers are charged at the local cost of power but a lot are fed by solar installations (meaning the solar power is effectively being sold at retail rates in the best case).

Both of those arrangements feel “fair” to me as an EV driver and I think they could be sustainable economically. Of course I’d rather charge slower and cheaper at home, but I’m happy to pay 75%-100% premium for DC fast charging to let me make a trip I otherwise couldn’t. Likewise for the office charger case: it doesn’t cost me anything more, so why not just plug in at work?

[nctnico]

That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

It does solve the need, if it's public charging.  Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week.  So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.

Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.

There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.

You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.

Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro). That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car). And that brings me to the next problem: charging spots take scarse parking spots away. In the Netherlands most streets have less parking spaces than cars (by design) and there is very little room for expansion. Earlier this year they actually removed two charging spots from the street where I live because the parking spaces can't be missed.

One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.

But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with. None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point and the problem is that you can't choose from which company to charge from; there will be only one in your street jacking up the prices for as long as they can. At some point prices will become regulated for sure, but that will take decades (*)

* Note: district heating is something similar. One company that serves a whole area without consumers being able to switch to a different supplier. After 30 years of lobbying and proceedings, the Dutch government finally created a law that limits the prices for district heating.

[nctnico]

But since you insist that parking is a vital part of the equation

Don't bother. Parking costs don't matter when comparing TCOs between cars. The parking costs will be identical so they drop out of the equation.

[sokoloff]

There is no advantage of slow charging at all.

Well then don’t I feel like an idiot having done over 50% of my charging for 7.5 years at around 1.5kW peak and, except for exactly 4 DC fast charge sessions, all the rest at 6.6kW peak.

The big advantage for me was to have a car that was usually “full” with 30 seconds of effort. That’s hundreds of petrol station visits avoided. The second advantage was lesser battery degradation when slow charging to full rather than fast charging to full.

[tom66]

There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.

We've been over this before.

Let's pretend your 10k euro cost is correct.  I would argue it is not, but for the sake of analysis let's go with it.  If the electricity is just 0.05 EUR extra per kWh above the cost price (ex VAT, other taxes etc.), then 10k euro takes 200,000kWh to pay back.  That is 28,500 hours of charging at 7kW.  There are 87,600 hours in 10 years, so that charger only needs to have >1/3rd occupancy to be profitable.

Now the reality is that installing ten chargers in one street/car park costs much less, per charger, than one charger, because the infrastructure is shared.  It may cost just 1,000 euros per space. 

Car parking spaces themselves cost some 20,000 euros each to construct.  Many of them exist already, sure, but that is land which is dedicated to the car over being a shop or a house or something else.  So it is not as if that land is free.  EV charging offers yet another way to make money from that land. 

Economically it's a no brainer.

You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.

OK, assholes are assholes.  Not sure what this has to do with EVs.  The infrastructure will be shared just as street parking is shared. 

Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro). That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car).

The spots I've seen in London tolerate overnight charging from 8pm to 9am, even if the charging finishes before then.  If you have enough infrastructure, it's not a problem!

One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.

A four-way head is probably just about possible if positioned correctly but you may need a 8-10m long cable.  Most cars come with 4m or less cable length, though you can of course buy longer cables.  An issue with current EVs is that charge points tend to be on random spots all over the vehicle.  Mine is under the VW badge up front, but the e-Golf is in the normal petrol filler place (as bodywork is ~same as petrol Golf).  There needs to be consistency here.  I personally prefer the charging position of ID.3/Ioniq 5/Tesla, which is rear on driver or passenger side.  Ideally there would be a decision on just one side as well, but given manufacturers of petrol cars can't make their minds up on this I may be an optimist.

But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with. None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point [...]

As you can see here and elsewhere I've justified how charging can be profitable even with small margins.  The problem is that there aren't enough EVs.  We need government subsidies or private investors to take a risk but it is very chicken and egg.  Fortunately it seems to be turning the right way.  I do think it will take the better part of a decade to have the right level of infrastructure though. 

[nctnico]

There is no advantage of slow charging at all. My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.

We've been over this before.

Let's pretend your 10k euro cost is correct.  I would argue it is not, but for the sake of analysis let's go with it.  If the electricity is just 0.05 EUR extra per kWh above the cost price (ex VAT, other taxes etc.), then 10k euro takes 200,000kWh to pay back.  That is 28,500 hours of charging at 7kW.  There are 87,600 hours in 10 years, so that charger only needs to have >1/3rd occupancy to be profitable.

No. I wrote 'costs'. As in installation and ongoing costs like having a helpdesk, permits, rent, payment infrastructure, maintenance, fees to have a grid connection, etc. That is the investment from the company that owns the charging point. They will want to make a healthy profit margin and interest from their investment. That money comes from your pocket. You'll likely be sharing a charging point with 3 or 4 others at most (due to distance between home/charging point) so you can see that the infrastructure costs are quite high when many of the cars are BEVs and there are many charging points.

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high. The Dutch government had to step in to force charging point operators to be more open about their pricing but they are still trying to be secretive about it. That story still has some chapters to be written...

Edit: also 20k euro for a parking space sounds way too high. Maybe in Manhattan but not in a regular city. Recently I got quoted 25 euro/m^2 for pavement work. Over here land (to build on) costs around 150 euro per m^2. So a 6mx3m parking space costs 25*18 + 150*18 = around 3.2k euro.

[sokoloff]

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.

50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

It’s enough that I’ll prefer to charge at home when possible, but when I need it, that price seems fair (particularly in light of your claim that they’re still not making a profit, but I’d feel it was fair even if they were making a profit).

[nctnico]

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.

50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

[tszaboo]

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.

50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

Especially with the current electricity prices. I also just love how a company can say they deliver 100% wind energy, and then claim that the price of electricity went up because of some global conflict. Oh dear, did that conflict stop the winds somehow?
Also I hear someone got a 3 month contract for 60 cent/kwh. At that price some diesel generators might be cheaper than buying it from the grid.

[pcprogrammer]

I also just love how a company can say they deliver 100% wind energy, and then claim that the price of electricity went up because of some global conflict. Oh dear, did that conflict stop the winds somehow?

Also a nice bit of bull shit that they state to deliver 100% wind energy. Or did they knock on your door to install a special electricity meter that only allows their green colored electrons to pass

As long as it is all delivered over a single cable there is no telling if your electricity is green. It is all administrative paperwork.

[gnuarm]

That still doesn't solve the problem with people having no fixed parking spaces. Over here it is first comes, first served. If you are late, then you have to park your car far away from your home. Street level charging can only be solved by having a public charging point at each parking spot (and then some because typically there aren't enough parking spots to begin with). But that is a rather expensive solution. With better batteries that allow charging in a few minutes and gas-station like super chargers, things will be much easier and more economic. At home charging is a crutch and shouldn't be an end goal for charging infrastructure.

It does solve the need, if it's public charging.  Recall a 20 mile range per day would mean the average user of a 200 mile car is charging less than once per week.  So if you put chargers in that cover say 20% of all spaces then that would cover demand fairly comfortably I suspect.

Fast charging is absolutely important but I think you're missing a key advantage of EVs if you don't take advantage of slow trickle charging, even if that's not done when parked at home.

There is no advantage of slow charging at all.

This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of BEV charging.  If you fast charge, the car is setting your pace.  When not charging, a car on the fast charger ties up significant capital.  So you have to disconnect the car when the charging is done, to prevent extra idle fees. 

Level 2 charging is actually quite adequate for most uses of BEVs.  With an average use of 40 miles per day, this only requires 10 kWh, or less than 2 hours on a typical level 2 charger.  Much less capital tied up, so usually no idle fees.  The car can be charged any time it is parked.

My estimate is that a slow, public charging point costs 5k to 10k euro in a 10 year time span. That money comes from your pocket and you get nothing in return.

Sorry, what cost is that exactly?

You are also way to optimistic about how people deal with shared infrastructure. My asshole neighbour across the street will happily punch you in the face if you dare park in 'his' parking spot in the front of his home. The police had to come several times already to calm him down.

How are irrational people relevant?  Did the police not deal with him?  Did the police say, "Good thing this wasn't over a charger or there's nothing we could do"? 

Another problem is that (at least in the Netherlands) a parking space with a charger is no longer a parking space but a space where you charge your car. Once charging is done, you need to move your car (the fine is 90 euro).

Sounds like your government fails to understand the nature of BEV charging.  That's a local problem. 

That just doesn't work with overnight charging; you'd have to get out of bed during the night to move your car (or be awakened by an angry neighbour that needs to charge a car).

Exactly!  This shows that you need to get that law changed!!!

And that brings me to the next problem: charging spots take scarse parking spots away. In the Netherlands most streets have less parking spaces than cars (by design)

Really?  So the plan is to make it as disfunctional as possible to own a car?  I guess they are really going to have fun with BEVs then.  Maybe moving to another country is in order to find a rational government. 

and there is very little room for expansion. Earlier this year they actually removed two charging spots from the street where I live because the parking spaces can't be missed.

One solution would be to have charging points with multiple outlets (say 6 to 8 ) that can serve several cars that are parked in a row without needing specific charging space, but that idea seemed not to have occured yet at the companies that develop / install charging points. And it would mean needing long cables that litter the street; it could be that regulations are blocking this idea already.

Sorry, what does that mean, "without needing specific charging space".  Are you talking about having a lot of curb and letting people park where they can fit a car? 

But that still doesn't solve the principle problem that public charging is very expensive to begin with.

It doesn't need to be.  The equipment is not very expensive, the parking spot costs more.  The electricity is not very expensive, well, not everywhere.  Still, you have to pay for the electricity no matter what.  So where is the expensive part?

None of the companies currently active in the Netherlands is making money from their charging points. They will have to earn their money back at some point and the problem is that you can't choose from which company to charge from; there will be only one in your street jacking up the prices for as long as they can. At some point prices will become regulated for sure, but that will take decades (*)

Like most utilities and public monopolies, the rates can be regulated.  That's where this will be headed.  After all, it's just a matter of selling electricity.

* Note: district heating is something similar. One company that serves a whole area without consumers being able to switch to a different supplier. After 30 years of lobbying and proceedings, the Dutch government finally created a law that limits the prices for district heating.

All this time it was a monopoly, but not regulated?  That's strange.

[gnuarm]

There is no advantage of slow charging at all.

Well then don’t I feel like an idiot having done over 50% of my charging for 7.5 years at around 1.5kW peak and, except for exactly 4 DC fast charge sessions, all the rest at 6.6kW peak.

The big advantage for me was to have a car that was usually “full” with 30 seconds of effort. That’s hundreds of petrol station visits avoided. The second advantage was lesser battery degradation when slow charging to full rather than fast charging to full.

People often think of gassing up a car as near zero inconvenience, but it is something you have to think about, in addition to driving there and the time filling up.  We have integrated the ICE paradigm into our lifestyle and don't give it a second thought, even though it does take time and effort. 

Now, with BEVs, we try to force them into the same mindset of waiting for the battery to be near empty, then "filling it up" and the time for that seems very long.  In reality it is not, because you simply don't go to a filling station and "fill it up".  You just plug in every evening.  People who have not driven a BEV don''t understand the simplicity of it. 

[gnuarm]

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.

50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

I'd like to see those numbers.  But real numbers, not made up stuff.

If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE.  It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.

[tom66]

Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

[nctnico]

Electricity from a charging point doesn't cost 0.05 euro above cost price, it is typically double the consumer cost price! And even at double the consumer price for electricity, they aren't making a profit. There is a very good reason charging point operators hide their prices; they are insanely high.

50% gross margin isn’t “insanely high” in my book.

Until you start calculating fuel costs for a hybrid; then the hybrid is more cost effective. Take the uncertainty of future price gouging into account and you see why buying a BEV is not such a good idea if you have to depend solely on public charging and want to drive the car for 5 to 10 years.

I'd like to see those numbers.  But real numbers, not made up stuff.

If a hybrid gets 50 mpg, that's still twice the cost of fueling a BEV (at US prices of fuel, not sure how high gasoline is in the UK or EU) and a hybrid has other costs like maintenance because of the ICE.  It also spews pollution and simply does not address the carbon problem at all.

If you factor in pollution like NOx and SO2 (the stuff that makes humans sick) then the hybrids wins hands down. I have posted the calculations a long time ago. Even with relatively clean electricity in the Netherlands, a BEV emits 5 times more SO2 compared to an efficient hybrid.

And hybrids address the CO2 problem for sure. As long as BEVs compensate non-hybrid ICE car sales AND electricity used for production and driving isn't 100% renewable, BEVs do nothing for CO2 reduction. Don't forget that BEVs have a much larger CO2 footprint due to production as well. You need to drive around 150k km to break even compared to a regular ICE car. With an efficient hybrid the BEV is likely to lose (which is why you never see hybrids mentioned in CO2 comparisons between BEV / ICE). In China BEVs are an environmental dissaster compared to hybrids due to the amount of coal fired power plants. Toyota has already shown that reduction of CO2 emission is possible without selling any BEVs... All easy to verify information.

BEVs have come a decade too early. Sure, BEVs are nice at some point in the future but not right now. With better battery technology and renewables further developed, BEVs will be a much better and mature product. In 20 to 30 years from now the current BEVs and charging infrastructure will be laughed upon just like the old 'portable' phones or going on internet with a 28k modem.

Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

[tom66]

I want neither phones. I have a good old POTS phone on my desk. Doesn't need charging at all and batteries never wear. Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement. It is a tedious action I can do without. I'm not a fan of having to fuel my car but at least that doesn't need to happen very often. Wireless charging a BEV would be a true improvement though.

Ok, we get it.  You don't like EVs.  But, really, complaining about plugging one in is a bit like complaining about having to press the brake now and then.  Compared to the overall action of driving a car it really seems pretty bloody minimal!

[tszaboo]

Owning a BEV is like going from a Nokia 3310i to an iPhone.

OK, on the one hand it's slightly inconvenient to plug in every night, rather than 'refuel' every two weeks.  But, on the other hand, it takes zero time, because it happens while you sleep.  And besides the odd very long road trip, if you can manage this nightly charging routine (or even nightly-once-every-week) then it can work out more convenient than petrol.  And, like the new phone, it gives you many more advantages and it's much nicer to use.

Yes, and owning an electric car now will feel like having an iPhone 2G when the 5 comes out. Solid state lithium, twice the range from the same battery, no fire.

[bdunham7]

Having to plug in a car every day just sucks. There is no place on earth where that is an improvement.

If you have your own garage space with an L2 EVSE in it, it takes 10-15 seconds every night (at most) and really is a big improvement over going to a gas station once a week or so.  I can't imagine an easier or more convenient way of fueling your car.