| General > General Technical Chat |
| Covid 19 virus |
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| Bud:
--- Quote from: engrguy42 on March 25, 2020, 01:30:56 pm ---paulca, I like your idea of a "when this is over" register. Probably want to include all the self proclaimed experts who sit on their butts commenting on stuff they know nothing about, solely to boost their own egos, rather than getting off their arses and taking a lesson from the UK. I'm hoping the US follows suit. Then people like me can get off their arses and do something useful. --- End quote --- Taking a lesson from the UK? They did not do a thing until French president Macron got furious and threatened to shut down the border with them. |
| not1xor1:
--- Quote from: imo on March 25, 2020, 10:21:17 am ---So when you advice "wear a face mask" they tend to think they will get a big box with face masks delivered to their doorstep, with an "user manual" inside, and they will wear a mask and their life will continue exactly as it was before.. --- End quote --- well they might order this mask from amazon and then feel very safe ;D |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: edavid on March 25, 2020, 02:49:46 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on March 25, 2020, 01:52:40 pm --- --- Quote from: dunkemhigh on March 25, 2020, 12:51:18 pm ---In general it's not a case of knowing better (or not). If one's intuition suggests one thing and expert advice suggests another, shouldn't one try to find out why there is that difference? --- End quote --- This is exactly what the WHO does! They look at the research and information from all the experts from different countries and base the information they supply on that. As usual truth is what the majority thinks is right but I rather follow advice resulting from balancing many different opinions than that of a limited group of people (government advisors included). --- End quote --- But doesn't e.g. South Korea have its own WHO equivalent? Why did they come to the opposite conclusion from WHO regarding masks? Also, you could argue that the Chinese health authorities know more about the problem than anyone, and they seem to be very pro-mask. Again, why? --- End quote --- You'd have to ask the WHO. There probably is a report somewhere on their website which explains the basis for their recommendations. --- Quote ---WHO has failed to establish a consensus or to make a solid case for their anti-mask statements. --- End quote --- That is your opinion. |
| thinkfat:
--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on March 25, 2020, 11:11:06 am --- --- Quote from: thinkfat on March 25, 2020, 09:58:35 am ---People here playing with numbers tell you you're 50% likely to be in the same space as an infected person while shopping food. Without getting hung up on the assumptions going into these calculation and their merits, let's just assume it being very likely. You'll casually meet this person with a certain probability. You'll become infected with a certain probability. Now imagine everyone wears a scarf in front of their mouth. Does this reduce the risk of getting infected or not? In the end, your whole train of argument boils down to just one: People shouldn't wear masks because they will feel protected and exhibit risky behavior. But they do that anyway and wearing protection isn't going to make it worse. The instructions and procedures for wearing face masks are designed for highly infectious and hazardous environments. Your local Costco is no such environment. The London Underground - not so sure. Best avoid entirely, with a mask or not. The whole idea behind all recommendations to not wear masks is anyway not increased risk of infection to the wearer, but because they are needed elsewhere and creating additional competition for the resource is a really bad idea right now. If the resource was plentiful, nobody would be making such recommendation. Rather, the opposite. Again: a mask on Joe Averages' face will not protect him. But it will protect others from Joe spreading the virus without knowing. But so does a scarf. Should you therefore wear a mask that would better suit a medical professional - NO. Should you wear a scarf - Yes, by all means. --- End quote --- No, not by all means. We've been over this a couple of times now and the answers remain the same. You're forgetting the part where untrained people touch all kinds of things they shouldn't touch and may very well make things worse. Dispensing advice which differs from the WHO guidelines is a huge risk even for a well respected medical professional. Even when it's well intended laymen should probably refrain from doing so. --- End quote --- I've looked into the two links you posted earlier in the thread. One is a study about food workers likelihood to performing proper hand hygiene in activities with and without gloves. The other ones is an expert opinion on the mertis of using gloves and face masks in a pandemic situation. From the study: --- Quote ---These results suggest that workers who wear gloves do not remove them and wash their hands as they should. Although some researchers and practitioners have contended that glove use can promote poor hand washing practices [...],little data exists on this issue. More research is needed to understand the relationship between glove use and handwashing. --- End quote --- And: --- Quote ---Appropriate hand washing and glove use were also related to worker busyness — these hand hygiene behaviors were less likely to occur when workers were busy (i.e., engaged in relatively larger numbers of activities needing handwashing) --- End quote --- The study does _not_ show conclusively a dependency between hand hygiene and glove use. Just as likely, time pressure may be the driver here, as removing the gloves before washing and putting them on again afterwards are time consuming activities. The generalization from here to "protective gear promotes careless behavior" is not obvious to me. As far as expert opinions go: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext --- Quote ---It is time for governments and public health agencies to make rational recommendations on appropriate face mask use to complement their recommendations on other preventive measures, such as hand hygiene. WHO currently recommends that people should wear face masks if they have respiratory symptoms or if they are caring for somebody with symptoms. Perhaps it would also be rational to recommend that people in quarantine wear face masks if they need to leave home for any reason, to prevent potential asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission. In addition, vulnerable populations, such as older adults and those with underlying medical conditions, should wear face masks if available. Universal use of face masks could be considered if supplies permit. In parallel, urgent research on the duration of protection of face masks, the measures to prolong life of disposable masks, and the invention on reusable masks should be encouraged. Taiwan had the foresight to create a large stockpile of face masks; other countries or regions might now consider this as part of future pandemic plans. --- End quote --- |
| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: imo on March 25, 2020, 10:21:17 am ---The major problem I see is the many nations/cultures tend to look after an easy solutions to this pandemic problem. So when you advice "wear a face mask" they tend to think they will get a big box with face masks delivered to their doorstep, with an "user manual" inside, and they will wear a mask and their life will continue exactly as it was before.. But wearing a mask is only one thing off MANY others you shall to do. There are measures at State level (a long list) and then a list what general public should do (a shorter list). Wearing a face mask is NOT a substitution for "stay at home, do social distancing, wash your hands, ..". You shall DO ALL.. Thus the thought like "wearing a face mask could give you a false feeling of safety" indicates an absolute misunderstanding of the overall process. And the authorities in some countries shall be really careful with what they are telling to their citizens in that matter. --- End quote --- The notion that wearing PPE leads to more risky behaviour isn't a misunderstanding. It's been shown to happen in trained health care and food industry professionals. Thinking it's speculation is the misunderstanding here. It's baffling people are still confused. |
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