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Covid 19 virus
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Cerebus:

--- Quote from: Stray Electron on April 01, 2020, 11:59:32 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 09:33:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: Stray Electron on April 01, 2020, 09:15:00 pm ---
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on April 01, 2020, 02:48:32 am ---

From the start, the States pushed for hard restrictions, & some went so far as to unilaterally close State borders, so the Federal govt had to go along with the majority in the body they set up.
I'm really not sure if that would be legally possible in the USA-------It certainly wouldn't be, politically!

From a distance, what we mostly see is the POTUS scoring political points from arguing with State leaders from the other Party about how many ventilators are needed, with Don seemingly "picking a number off the top of his head".

--- End quote ---


    I don't know where you get your information from but you need a new source! Nothing in this statement is true. NO state governor asked for "hard restrictions" and to date NO state border has been closed.  My son just drove from California to Florida and was never stopped once.

--- End quote ---

You're being a tad parochial and failing to realise that other federated countries exist and the federated entities within them are called states - in this case the states being referred to are the states of Australia. The big clue is in the second line of the comment you're quoting  that starts "The Coalition  government in Australia...".

--- End quote ---

  And you neglected to read the rest of his statement which specifically about the US. Here is the rest of of what you ignored, the last line in the first paragraph makes it clear that he was referring to the US and each of the three following paragraphs also refer specifically to the US. Go back and read his post again, the quote about "The Coalition Government of Australia" was a previous paragraph.

--- End quote ---

No, I read the whole thing, and understood it. It seems you failed to do either.
Someone:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 10:08:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2020, 10:00:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 01:56:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2020, 04:31:49 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 02:07:41 am ---That's a faintly ridiculous thing to say, protective clothing and equipment is not the sort of thing that, in any sane country, falls into the category of "heavily restricted objects/systems".

--- End quote ---
Respirators and suits providing significant protection against chemical and biological agents (actual hazmat suits) are dual use products.
https://dsgl.defence.gov.au/dsglcontent/Pages/1A004.aspx
Not something you can just stroll down to the local shops and buy.

--- End quote ---
I note that the DSGL list you pointed to includes full face respirators in the same category - are you really trying to tell us that your government treats these as "highly restricted" and one could not wander down to the local supplier of equipment to car resprayers and just pick one off the shelf? You certainly could here, I have done.

--- End quote ---
And no, you can't walk down to the local respray shop and buy biological rated filters for a full face mask, you get filters that are effective against industrial solvents/particulates.

--- End quote ---
I can actually hear the scrapping noise those goalposts are making as you move them with the strawman draped across them.

--- End quote ---
It does appear you introduced buying full face mask respirators retail, yet failed to link them back to the dual use product classifications which separates out those which are controlled. Seems this thread is full of people who just look at things on a superficial level and equate them, when protective equipment is actually extremely nuanced and complicated.
Bud:
Some time in March:



3 weeks later:

Cerebus:

--- Quote from: Someone on April 02, 2020, 02:23:02 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 10:08:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2020, 10:00:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 01:56:13 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2020, 04:31:49 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on April 01, 2020, 02:07:41 am ---That's a faintly ridiculous thing to say, protective clothing and equipment is not the sort of thing that, in any sane country, falls into the category of "heavily restricted objects/systems".

--- End quote ---
Respirators and suits providing significant protection against chemical and biological agents (actual hazmat suits) are dual use products.
https://dsgl.defence.gov.au/dsglcontent/Pages/1A004.aspx
Not something you can just stroll down to the local shops and buy.

--- End quote ---
I note that the DSGL list you pointed to includes full face respirators in the same category - are you really trying to tell us that your government treats these as "highly restricted" and one could not wander down to the local supplier of equipment to car resprayers and just pick one off the shelf? You certainly could here, I have done.

--- End quote ---
And no, you can't walk down to the local respray shop and buy biological rated filters for a full face mask, you get filters that are effective against industrial solvents/particulates.

--- End quote ---
I can actually hear the scrapping noise those goalposts are making as you move them with the strawman draped across them.

--- End quote ---
It does appear you introduced buying full face mask respirators retail, yet failed to link them back to the dual use product classifications which separates out those which are controlled. Seems this thread is full of people who just look at things on a superficial level and equate them, when protective equipment is actually extremely nuanced and complicated.

--- End quote ---

Nuance you fail to appreciate, seeing as exactly the same elements that protect against solvents also protect against chemical warfare agents - yes those are on the DSGL list. (It's good old fashioned activated charcoal for the record). You're the one who threw in the 'biological rated filters' strawman. Biological rated filters, of course, are what we have spent countless fun hours discussing here in relation to Covid-19. There is very little special about filters that will exclude biological risks - military gas masks for this purpose are rated FFP3 just like the kind of masks we've been talking about for Covid-19. You bluster about "heavily restricted items" but seem to have very little actual knowledge of hazmat technology and I guess are hoping that the rest of don't either. Well, I do, and a casual glance at that list of restricted uses are all use cases for respirators that I've bought and owned with no official hoops to jump through, just money to pay to everyday trade suppliers.  Briitish Army standard issue NBC respirators are rated AB2EK-P3 and you can commercially buy similar rated filters here https://www.rapidonline.com/3m-6099-gas-combination-filter-abek1p3-2-pairs-49-5558 with no fuss, no muss. This stuff is used industrially by the bucketload every day. For the record, the respirators used by blokes spray painting cars are actually fully air supplied (the reason being isocyanates used in modern 2 pack paints are nasty from a respiratory point of view and  hard to trap adequately in filters), so are pretty much proof against anything and would therefore fall into all the DSGL restricted categories. And yet you can still just pick them up at a trade counter.

You've gone to surprising lengths to try and ridicule the OP who mentioned hazmat suits, gainsay me and one other poster who's called you out on hyperbole too, and you still haven't actually made your case. You have completely failed to demonstrate that hazmat suits are, in any fashion other then export control, "heavily restricted items", failed to demonstrate that there is any official "control" forbidding their sale in the normal course of business. You just keep doubling down on the same statement without actually providing any proof, yet conveniently exclude any evidence of them being on general industrial sale by just gainsaying it thus:

--- Quote from: Someone on April 01, 2020, 04:31:49 am ---
--- Quote from: SkyMaster on April 01, 2020, 03:30:54 am ---A DuPont Tychem 10,000 Level A Suit cost less than $2000 in Canada, a little bit expensive for Halloween, but available.
--- End quote ---
A good example but have you tried buying one? Plenty of controlled products are advertised on online stores, but it doesn't mean they will sell to the general public. Also thats only the suit shell, still plenty of other components and procedures required.

--- End quote ---

You're on a hiding to nothing but still persist. It beggars belief the lengths some people will go to to avoid saying "Perhaps I overstated the case".

This is my last word on the subject as I'm sure that I'm boring the rest of the world to tears, and they will have formed their own opinions on the reasonableness of your and my arguments a long time ago (If they were stupid enough to keep paying attention).
Rick Law:

--- Quote from: maginnovision on April 01, 2020, 06:58:09 pm ---A private urgent care is not the same as a hospital. The sad fact is they probably wouldn't have been able to do anything except try to get him to a hospital anyway. As the story shows he didn't make it there. His family should have called 911. If you're EVER in doubt in the US call 911. It will not be cheap but they will do everything they can.

--- End quote ---

Yup - if ever in doubt, call 911 or go to the emergency room.

Emergency Room(s) has everything in terms of equipment, and not to forget, access to specialist.  I have been with the same doctor (in private practice) for over thirty years.  I took my wife to see our doctor.  She (the doctor) poke and feel and then said it would be best for us to get to the hospital emergency.  She went on to explain: if we ordered blood test, and as needed, x-ray, CAT scan, whatever, you could be dead before the results are back, and if not, you can wait for an appointment with a specialist.  She was right on.  That was my first visit to the emergency room.

The second time I took my wife to the emergency room directly in the middle of the night.  It was over my wife's objection because she wanted to wait till morning till the doctor's office opens.  At the emergency, after the initial vital check, she was taken to the "resuscitation room" to stabilize her.  She was (re)admitted to the hospital a few hours later.  I was told during the stabilization that "she wouldn't have last the night" the condition she was in.

So when in doubt, get to the Emergency Room if you can, or call 911.

I now own a blood pressure meter and a heart beat monitor.  They are not medical grade and need practice to get consistent readings.  But, they help me make better decisions.

Lastly, one thing we do not normally think about:  While Obama Care requires medical records to be electronic, it did not requires inter-connectivity between medical services/groups.  We were using a lab and medical imaging service in a group different from the ones used by our specialist-doctor and the hospital.  I know from discussing with the doctor about a prior scan but then learn that he never received the result for that scan.  So I started waiting for the results (and CD of images) to hand to the doctor directly.  Eventually I switched over to using the same lab/imaging service used by the specialist to avoid data lost and time lost.

So, if you have the need for specialist-doctor and your specialist-doctor use an imaging service differ than your GP-doctor, do put that into consideration.


--- Quote from: Sredni on April 01, 2020, 06:26:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 01, 2020, 05:42:59 am ---
--- Quote from: not1xor1 on April 01, 2020, 03:52:35 am ---I even read that in the US, a couple of days ago, a 17 years old boy died of COVID-19 just  because he could not afford to pay the hospital while yesterday mr Trump promised to help Italy with health devices for a value of 100 millions of USD

that does make little sense given that even the US have a lack of those devices while the contagion in the most stricken parts of Italy is already decreasing and probably Spain might need them more than us now
...

--- End quote ---

In the USA, law exist that an acute patient cannot be rejected by any hospital - even private hospitals.  The patient must be stabilized and under no immediate danger before they can let the patient leave.  Law is one thing, hospitals and emergency rooms are in practice a chaotic place.  I had to visit the emergency room on a couple of occasions - had the wait-time for the 2nd visit been as long as the 1st visit, my wife would probably have died waiting.  If you can wait, they will see you - insured or not.  Died while waiting - well, happens to the insured and uninsured.

That 17 year old who died may not be in the USA.  Besides being rejected by hospital which is hard to believe, according to CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR March 26 update (with corrections)[1]), there is no confirmed deaths for anyone at or below 19 years old. 

--- End quote ---

https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/17-year-old-dies-of-coronavirus-was-turned-away-for-lacking-insurance/
...
...

--- End quote ---

The article pointed out that "LA County announced the boy had died from the coronavirus — health officials said there may be an “alternate explanation” and that his death would be further investigated" [Bold added].

I actually did saw the article and was going to point it out to my kid so she is more careful - but that last line there stopped me.  They are not yet sure and I wrote it off in my mind as virus-death consequently.

The linked article was dated March 28 but reference "by Wednesday he was dead" so it could be Wed March 25.  The CDC report I cited was updated March 26.  So as of March 26, CDC has not yet considered that case a virus-caused death.  May be CDC will do so once the "further investigation" is completed.
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