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| Covid 19 virus |
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| Nominal Animal:
--- Quote from: Cerebus on March 15, 2020, 08:22:24 pm ---I think what you're thinking of is a "cytokine storm". Firstly, there have been no reports of this kind of event being systematically associated with SARS-Covid-2 (Covid-19) like it was with SARS-Covid (SARS) - where it was the mechanism of death for many young otherwise healthy people who contracted SARS. Secondly, by the time you have reached the point where your immune systems have overreacted so much that they are (no exaggeration) tearing your body apart in a cytokine storm you are so unwell that you'll be in ICU or on your way there. --- End quote --- The EMCrit project does note that "Emerging evidence suggests that some patients may respond to COVID-19 with an exuberant “cytokine storm” reaction (with features of bacterial sepsis or hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis)" and that "Clinical markers of this may include elevations of C-reactive protein and ferritin, which appear to track with disease severity and mortality (Ruan 3/3/20)", which to me means cytokine storms are associated, but not systematically in all patients. As I understand it, these features they mention refer to fever or lowered body temperature, fatigue and confusion, enlarged and/or sensitive lymph nodes, and signs of general inflammation, including rashes. That means, in my understanding (which is quite limited!), that the situation is not yet on the autoimmune attack stage requiring intensive care, but more like the immune system is not concentrating on the virus properly. (I can imagine several ways this could happen, the most likely being that white cells cannot tag/identify the virus or virus-infected cells properly.) If so, reducing the cytokine storm in its initial phase, before intensive care is actually needed due to the severity of the symptoms, sounds like a good idea to me. From the rumours from Chinese doctors, I understood that in patients where the cytokine storm itself is in its early stages, with intensive care not yet warranted, high doses of ascorbic acid "showed promise". I could be wrong here, but since taking high doses of vit C in the short term is not dangerous (as it is water soluble), at worst it is a placebo. At best, it might actually help a little. |
| Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: SilverSolder on March 16, 2020, 01:34:04 pm ---But the survivalist is still only delaying the inevitable, if he ever intends to interact with another human being ever again... --- End quote --- Indeed, hence this isn't the best time for the full-blown survivalist to shine; even a semi-survivalist strategy is enough to do what is necessary, namely slow down the spread so that the healthcare system can deal with it without collapsing. --- Quote from: SilverSolder on March 16, 2020, 01:34:04 pm ---The time to be a survivalist is when a much more deadly disease spreads, at which point it might be mankind's only hope for avoiding extinction... --- End quote --- Exactly! |
| DrG:
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 16, 2020, 02:13:54 pm --- --- Quote from: Cerebus on March 15, 2020, 08:22:24 pm ---I think what you're thinking of is a "cytokine storm". Firstly, there have been no reports of this kind of event being systematically associated with SARS-Covid-2 (Covid-19) like it was with SARS-Covid (SARS) - where it was the mechanism of death for many young otherwise healthy people who contracted SARS. Secondly, by the time you have reached the point where your immune systems have overreacted so much that they are (no exaggeration) tearing your body apart in a cytokine storm you are so unwell that you'll be in ICU or on your way there. --- End quote --- The EMCrit project does note that "Emerging evidence suggests that some patients may respond to COVID-19 with an exuberant “cytokine storm” reaction (with features of bacterial sepsis or hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis)" and that "Clinical markers of this may include elevations of C-reactive protein and ferritin, which appear to track with disease severity and mortality (Ruan 3/3/20)", which to me means cytokine storms are associated, but not systematically in all patients. As I understand it, these features they mention refer to fever or lowered body temperature, fatigue and confusion, enlarged and/or sensitive lymph nodes, and signs of general inflammation, including rashes. That means, in my understanding (which is quite limited!), that the situation is not yet on the autoimmune attack stage requiring intensive care, but more like the immune system is not concentrating on the virus properly. (I can imagine several ways this could happen, the most likely being that white cells cannot tag/identify the virus or virus-infected cells properly.) If so, reducing the cytokine storm in its initial phase, before intensive care is actually needed due to the severity of the symptoms, sounds like a good idea to me. From the rumours from Chinese doctors, I understood that in patients where the cytokine storm itself is in its early stages, with intensive care not yet warranted, high doses of ascorbic acid "showed promise". I could be wrong here, but since taking high doses of vit C in the short term is not dangerous (as it is water soluble), at worst it is a placebo. At best, it might actually help a little. --- End quote --- https://externalmediasite.partners.org/Mediasite/Play/45a9a74f18ec45deb338e00ac4cf4e281d See Galit Aler's presentation beginning at slide 42. It is precisely what you are discussing here. There does appear to be a dysregulation of the immune response early on and in some patients. I think that, as suggested in the presentation, this is being targeted for therapy. |
| Cerebus:
--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on March 16, 2020, 12:11:04 pm ---I don't know what would differ exactly from humans as to how the virus can propagate, so I'd be interested in more details. Maybe it just doesn't infect/ and thus get through their respiratory system at all? --- End quote --- Firstly there's a assumption here that the animal had exactly the same strain that is infecting humans as opposed to a closely related but 'dog targetting' variant of the species. Viruses are incredibly specific to their host species. If a host cell doesn't express some cell surface antigen that the virus needs to get into the cell, it won't. If a host cell doesn't have the right variant of some enzyme involved in manufacturing or assembling new virions then the virus won't reproduce. The response to viruses is also highly variable within species. For most people Epstein-Barr virus causes the disease Mononucleosis/Glandular Fever, but in some people (particularly in Sino-Asian populations) it causes a type of leukaemia. All it takes for a virus to cause/not cause disease, or be infectious/no infectious can be as little as a single gene variation in the host species. |
| Cerebus:
--- Quote from: SilverSolder on March 16, 2020, 01:34:04 pm ---But the survivalist is still only delaying the inevitable, if he ever intends to interact with another human being ever again... --- End quote --- That's making the assumption that the infection circulates forever in the general population. It does not, or we'd still all be dropping like flies from the Bubonic Plague of the middle ages. Of course we are not, and we don't have active immunity to the Bubonic Plague either. |
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