Author Topic: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented  (Read 15551 times)

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Offline jmh

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #100 on: March 28, 2022, 09:32:58 am »
I would see it as the phone showing a QR code which the payment terminal scans and then contacts the user's bank to authorize a transfer, the bank does the transfer, then the vendor sees that it's paid for.

That did surprise me on our last trip to China. No-one used cards, all transactions were done via smartphones and QR code and WeChat/Pay/whatever I forget. Even vending machines, which annoyed us as there was no way to even use cash or cards. The only time we needed cash to get into a museum one of the party simply asked some random person and they used their phones to transfer the value, random person handing over the cash amount.

On NFC, son #1 refuses to have a card with it. When the bank issues a new one it comes with NFC, he complains and they send a non-NFC version. As to the rest of us, even the wife can use it now (!) so it had better stay!
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2022, 10:45:44 am »
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Australian Consumer Law applies to any company who sells a product or provides a service in Australia, regardless whether or not the company is based or headquartered in Australia. So yes, companies such as Aliexpress, Amazon etc... are still bound by the legislation here if they choose to offer their products for sale in Australia.

But technically they are not offering a service in Australia - you are going to their website in China and importing yourself. Further, what penalty can Australia action against Aliexpress? I guess they could stop any import from there, but that's a rather big stick for, say, a camera that broke after 3 months.

The situation with Amazon isn't very clear - they are not reselling anything, just handling what are essentially adverts. Sometimes they act as drop shipper, but often they don't handle the goods in any way. The closest they get is acting as a money broker (like PayPay, and I'm pretty sure PayPal isn't responsible for whatever you decide to import).
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2022, 10:49:58 am »
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I already have this. My phone emulates a NFC Visa debit card using an app.

But it's still NFC, which is the bad boy. Although on a phone you can control when it's actually transacting. My new phone, which I don't use, has NFC but my favourite which I use all the time doesn't. Sometimes life's a bitch :)

I agree about the hassle of getting the app going and paying for stuff, but if you don't want to use NFC on card, or just not have to carry them, it's a reasonable solution.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2022, 10:51:05 am »
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No-one used cards, all transactions were done via smartphones and QR code and WeChat/Pay/whatever I forget. Even vending machines, which annoyed us as there was no way to even use cash or cards.

Oh. I'll let the patent application drop, then :)
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2022, 10:56:58 am »
People talking about NFC skimming  clearly don’t understand how end to end contactless cards transfers work. You can’t successfully initiate a transfer simply by having the NFC details
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2022, 11:00:15 am »
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As for warranty extensions, they are almost pointless in countries with strong consumer laws.

Kind of. If you buy of Aliexpress your local laws are irrelevant. Suppose you buy from the Amazon marketplace and the vendor is that same Aliexpress one, just advertising on Amazon. Which law applies?

Australian Consumer Law applies to any company who sells a product or provides a service in Australia, regardless whether or not the company is based or headquartered in Australia. So yes, companies such as Aliexpress, Amazon etc... are still bound by the legislation here if they choose to offer their products for sale in Australia. They don't get to opt-out of their responsibilities just because they aren't in the country. If they want Australian customers, they must comply with our laws.

Also, resellers don't get away with it simply because they didn't manufacture the product. The seller is just as liable as the manufacturer. One cannot fob a customer off onto the other (that's illegal).

I've personally had an ACL claim against a US-based company in the past, which was ruled in my favour. Whilst the company didn't really get a legal "smack", it cost them a total refund + an additional 100% of the purchase cost at the time. That's money in my pocket for their stuff-up.

Many larger countries have extra territorial laws   The EU has many. But the fact remains that the company unless it has a legal presence in the area is immune to any civil judgements.
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Offline Zipdox

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2022, 11:07:54 am »
You do realize you can disable contactless payment through your bank? You can also change the PIN requirement threshold. At least with my bank.
 

Offline kjpye

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2022, 11:17:26 am »
But technically they are not offering a service in Australia - you are going to their website in China and importing yourself. Further, what penalty can Australia action against Aliexpress? I guess they could stop any import from there, but that's a rather big stick for, say, a camera that broke after 3 months.

They quote prices in Australian dollars, calculate prices for postage to Australia, and collect Australian GST, which they presumably transfer to the Australian Government. And the item I ordered on AliExpress a couple of weeks ago, and was then shipped from Sydney the next day and I had within 4 days of ordering (AusPost can be vaguely efficient occasionally) -- was that imported by me?
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2022, 11:18:54 am »
But technically they are not offering a service in Australia - you are going to their website in China and importing yourself. Further, what penalty can Australia action against Aliexpress? I guess they could stop any import from there, but that's a rather big stick for, say, a camera that broke after 3 months.

They quote prices in Australian dollars, calculate prices for postage to Australia, and collect Australian GST, which they presumably transfer to the Australian Government. And the item I ordered on AliExpress a couple of weeks ago, and was then shipped from Sydney the next day and I had within 4 days of ordering (AusPost can be vaguely efficient occasionally) -- was that imported by me?

Yes. DDP still makes you the importer
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2022, 04:38:59 pm »
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They quote prices in Australian dollars, calculate prices for postage to Australia, and collect Australian GST

I can sell you something and do all of that if you like, and I guarantee I don't even know where Australia is never mind have a business operation there. When whatever I send you turns out to an EMC bomb equivalent, the only comeback you'll have is to get your bank to do a chargeback (but I'll insist on a funds transfer so that won't be possible ;) ). Plus, when you report to TPTB that the thing you bought is killing off mobile phones in a 20 mile radius, it's not me they'll be coming after but the importer. That is, you.

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and was then shipped from Sydney the next day and I had within 4 days of ordering (AusPost can be vaguely efficient occasionally) -- was that imported by me?

In that particular case I would be inclined to think you are not, but I wouldn't want to have to argue that in court. When you order, you don't know if there is a warehouse full of stuff already here or if it's going to be coming in by boat. But either way, how are you going to force the vendor to satisfy your grievance? Suppose they deign to actually answer emails but just send a page full of smileys, what are you going to do?
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2022, 06:10:52 pm »
I would see it as the phone showing a QR code which the payment terminal scans and then contacts the user's bank to authorize a transfer, the bank does the transfer, then the vendor sees that it's paid for. Things like Tesco Pay are almost there. Previously it would have been unheard of because of the 2-5day transfer timescale, but nowadays I can get notification from my bank that I've just spent money at Tesco before I've pulled the phone away from the reader.

The reverse could work: the payment  terminal shows the QR code which the phone scans. Either way the phone has a link to the bank, a does the vendor, so it's all matched up in realtime.

What do you see as being better with this scheme than with NFC? It's only going to be remotely secure if the code is one-time-use and also requires a round-trip through your bank for manual authorization. So then it depends on your phone's Internet service, your bank's app or SMS or whatever authorization mechanism and so on all working properly. It seems a lot more likely to cause delays / issues at checkout, and it's definitely more cumbersome than the existing contactless payment scheme.

Going the other way where the vendor shows a code with the amount and their recipient account details and you authorize the transaction on your phone seems more reasonable, but still depends on the bank's app and the Internet, and still more cumbersome and not substantially different than NFC.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2022, 07:03:32 pm »
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What do you see as being better with this scheme than with NFC?

It ain't NFC.

Technically that's irrelevant, but if someone is convinced that 5G causes covid19 then they're not going to accept that NFC on a phone is a bit different to NFC on a card which is really tricky to subvert anyway.

And, as mentioned just a tiny little bit before your post (do you actually read stuff before skipping to the end and posting?) some phones don't do NFC.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2022, 07:28:36 pm »
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Australian Consumer Law applies to any company who sells a product or provides a service in Australia, regardless whether or not the company is based or headquartered in Australia. So yes, companies such as Aliexpress, Amazon etc... are still bound by the legislation here if they choose to offer their products for sale in Australia.

But technically they are not offering a service in Australia - you are going to their website in China and importing yourself. Further, what penalty can Australia action against Aliexpress? I guess they could stop any import from there, but that's a rather big stick for, say, a camera that broke after 3 months.

The situation with Amazon isn't very clear - they are not reselling anything, just handling what are essentially adverts. Sometimes they act as drop shipper, but often they don't handle the goods in any way. The closest they get is acting as a money broker (like PayPay, and I'm pretty sure PayPal isn't responsible for whatever you decide to import).

They would still be considered a reseller, same as Amazon and eBay. Although ACL doesn't apply to auctions or private sales between individuals.

A shitty camera off Aliexpress is also unlikely to pass the test of "reasonable quality" under the law. If you pay $20 for a camera and it lasts 3 months, that's probably going to be "reasonable" in the circumstances. If you pay $2000 for a camera, then it's not reasonable for it to last only 3 months. In that instance, you could go back to the manufacturer of the product (even if you didn't buy it directly from them) to seek a remedy. In my experience, most decent companies who care about their reputation will understand their obligations under consumer law and do the right thing. Even car dealers and manufacturers are slowly starting to get with the program.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2022, 11:37:25 am »
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I already have this. My phone emulates a NFC Visa debit card using an app.

But it's still NFC, which is the bad boy. Although on a phone you can control when it's actually transacting. My new phone, which I don't use, has NFC but my favourite which I use all the time doesn't. Sometimes life's a bitch :)

I agree about the hassle of getting the app going and paying for stuff, but if you don't want to use NFC on card, or just not have to carry them, it's a reasonable solution.

What makes NFC trough an app worse than a QR code?

In both cases the phone and POS terminal have to communicate in some way to make the transaction happen. Only difference being that NFC is bidirectional so the phone can hand back the approved and signed transaction key directly to the terminal while the QR code method goes back trough the internet. In both cases the phone app is the middle man to make things happen and in both cases a server in the internet in involved to execute the transaction. Both are immune to skimming (by listening to NFC data or your internet data trough a fake cell tower) since the data is only relevant for that one transaction, so it can't be used to complete an extra fraudulent transaction.

Only thing is that to scan a QR code you have to aim your phone at it, sometimes having issues with lighting and glare. On the other hand NFC just needs to be plonked down against the terminal.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2022, 01:15:41 pm »
1. Because there are crazies who think anything wireless is going to kill them.
2. Because there are people who think NFC can be easily skimmed while their card or device is still in their pocket.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2022, 01:33:54 pm »
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What makes NFC trough an app worse than a QR code?

Lack of NFC hardware (said for the third time already)?

 

Offline Berni

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #116 on: March 29, 2022, 05:54:38 pm »
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What makes NFC trough an app worse than a QR code?

Lack of NFC hardware (said for the third time already)?

So does NFC then win a point for the lack of camera hardware?

The NFC hardware in a phone only does something when the phone tells it to like all the other RF interfaces on a phone (and can be turned off completely much like bluetooth or wifi) Even when turned on my phone the NFC only appears to work once the phone is active (as in lock screen unlocked).  Then when you actually want to pay at a POS terminal using NFC the app has to take over control of the NFC interface to make it emulate a tag (rather than the normal operation as a tag reader). So the NFC is not running at all when the phone is in the pocket, let alone making banking card data available.

As for the people concerned with electromagnetic radiation the NFC is the lowest power transmitter in the whole phone. The WiFi chipset can pump out 100mW at 2.4GHz while the cellular chipset can pump out >2W of RF power at lots of bands from 900MHz to 3500MHz, yet you hold that right up against your head when making a phone call.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2022, 09:36:52 pm »
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So does NFC then win a point for the lack of camera hardware?

If you had a device with NFC and no camera, sure. A smart watch, for example, might do it.

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The NFC hardware in a phone only does something when the phone tells it to like all the other RF interfaces on a phone

Ha! You really haven't read previous messages but just dived in.

But it's still NFC, which is the bad boy. Although on a phone you can control when it's actually transacting.

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As for the people concerned with electromagnetic radiation the NFC is the lowest power transmitter in the whole phone.

Doesn't matter. The people you need to explain that to aren't going to listen to reason or science. If they were then you'd not have to explain it in the first place, see.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #118 on: March 30, 2022, 12:03:25 am »
It ain't NFC.

Technically that's irrelevant, but if someone is convinced that 5G causes covid19 then they're not going to accept that NFC on a phone is a bit different to NFC on a card which is really tricky to subvert anyway.

I mean yeah, I guess if you're trying to appease irrational people whose preferences make no sense, you can come up with many alternative schemes that have no real advantages. They will probably come up with some reason that QR codes are mind control or something next. There's no point in trying to appease them, and our widespread technological infrastructure certainly shouldn't.

The end user isn't even the one financially on the hook if things go wrong, they really have no say over it. If I had my way they'd get rid of their stupid SMS-based OTP for every $10 transaction online and replace it with standards-based TOTP, but that's not my decision to make, as frustrating as it is.

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And, as mentioned just a tiny little bit before your post (do you actually read stuff before skipping to the end and posting?) some phones don't do NFC.

Indeed, and that is why many credit cards have NFC built-in. It's the same thing. Are you following what this thread is about? I missed the part where the conspiracy nuts and their complete misunderstanding of the technology entered the conversation as a serious concern.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2022, 12:23:31 am »
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I missed the part where the conspiracy nuts and their complete misunderstanding of the technology entered the conversation

Overall, I'd agree that the risk is low and does require a terminal to submit the fraudulent transactions. The fact that detected fraud has gone down does not necessarily mean that undetected fraud is not present.

One thing I have noticed about NFC transactions if that the user rarely gets a paper receipt showing the amount charged for later comparison against the bank statement. They are too concerned about convenience. I'd expect these folks don't even review their credit/debit card statements. So, there is a greater chance for undetected fraud.

I advise people that are concerned about this issue to either request non-NFC cards or drill a hole to break the antenna. My (45 and 30) kids love the ease of use. I am much more concerned about security than they are. To each, their own...

You're welcome.

One reason I suggested QR codes is because my bank uses them effectively to perform 2FA using a phone. My local supermarket uses them for purchases (to perform the same function as NFC). My phone doesn't have NFC and my PC doesn't have an NFC reader, so QR code has made life a lot easier for me. If your phone has NFC and you use it then you may not fully appreciate what the lack of same means when you'd like to use that feature and can't. Maybe like if your PC only had a trackpad instead of a mouse.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2022, 12:25:52 am »
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and that is why many credit cards have NFC built-in

Well, you live and learn! I always thought that phones gained NFC after credit/debit cards (that is, to emulate cards) rather than vice versa as you seem to suggest.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #121 on: March 30, 2022, 01:19:58 am »
1. Because there are crazies who think anything wireless is going to kill them.
2. Because there are people who think NFC can be easily skimmed while their card or device is still in their pocket.

Basically, yep!
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #122 on: March 30, 2022, 01:51:41 am »
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and that is why many credit cards have NFC built-in

Well, you live and learn! I always thought that phones gained NFC after credit/debit cards (that is, to emulate cards) rather than vice versa as you seem to suggest.
Contactless cards predate NFC in phones by many years. Contactless credit card terminals were already widespread here in Europe by the time NFC in phones hit the street.
 
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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2022, 08:27:00 pm »
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Well, you live and learn! I always thought that phones gained NFC after credit/debit cards (that is, to emulate cards) rather than vice versa as you seem to suggest.

Indeed, so virtually everyone with a credit card has access to it at this point. Penetration of the technology nears 100%. Why reinvent the wheel?

One thing I have noticed about NFC transactions if that the user rarely gets a paper receipt showing the amount charged for later comparison against the bank statement. They are too concerned about convenience. I'd expect these folks don't even review their credit/debit card statements. So, there is a greater chance for undetected fraud.

So ask for one? The process on the pin pad for receipt generation is usually identical whether contactless or contact payment is used, and depends mostly on the merchant's policy. This has nothing to do with NFC.

I advise people that are concerned about this issue to either request non-NFC cards or drill a hole to break the antenna. My (45 and 30) kids love the ease of use. I am much more concerned about security than they are. To each, their own...

If you don't like NFC that's...fine...you can disable it and use contact payment instead. But that doesn't make those asinine beliefs justification for a new system that serves the same basic purpose just...worse. I was under the assumption that we were being rational here, on a technical forum, and that the above discussion of the security model around NFC was enough to get past that. So thank you for reminding me that's not actually the case and that we need to spend more time emphasizing that NFC is pretty secure as long as you remain in physical control of the card/device. Just don't give your card to anyone and the NFC-related risk is effectively zero.

One reason I suggested QR codes is because my bank uses them effectively to perform 2FA using a phone. My local supermarket uses them for purchases (to perform the same function as NFC). My phone doesn't have NFC and my PC doesn't have an NFC reader, so QR code has made life a lot easier for me. If your phone has NFC and you use it then you may not fully appreciate what the lack of same means when you'd like to use that feature and can't.
There's no reason such a system couldn't work, but it has a lot more dependencies and limitations than the NFC system. You can't reasonably implement it in a credit card, or many other devices you might want to put it in like a smartwatch, since it requires a camera. It depends on an active Internet connection on the user's device. I'm not seeing much benefit here.

I don't actually bother with phone-based NFC, it's not really more convenient than just tapping the card, but it's handy if I forget my wallet.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 11:44:08 pm by ve7xen »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2022, 09:40:11 pm »
One thing I have noticed about NFC transactions if that the user rarely gets a paper receipt showing the amount charged for later comparison against the bank statement. They are too concerned about convenience. I'd expect these folks don't even review their credit/debit card statements. So, there is a greater chance for undetected fraud.

Hey, don't put words onto my keyboard! I did not write that and I think you're a dick for making out I did. Please edit it RIGHT NOW to put the record straight.

AND the other quotes which look like they are attributed to me but are not mine. In fact, most of what you quoted was written by someone the polar opposite to me.

Sheesh. Put it right, please.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 09:42:34 pm by dunkemhigh »
 
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