Author Topic: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented  (Read 15570 times)

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Online BentaTopic starter

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Can some one explain the advantages of NFC on payment cards? Apart from making a hipster look cool, of course.

Sticking the card into a reader instead of putting it on top of it is no major benefit to me. I still have to retrieve it from my wallet and replace it again, which is the biggest part of the operation. Benefit ~0.

On the other hand, I now have to place the cards in special sheaths to avoid skimming from a criminal walking by. Result: the cards no longer fit in my wallet slots. Inconvenience: 100.

On top of that, NFC transactions below 50 Euro require no PIN. Security risk: 100.

The idiot that thought of this should be... (add own wish).
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2022, 08:54:13 pm »
Some banks allow you to turn off NFCs on your cards if you ask them to... (I assume NFC is the same as "tap" here in Canada where you just wave your card near a reader)
 

Online BentaTopic starter

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2022, 09:06:11 pm »
Yep, it's the "tap" function.
But "some banks" doesn't really help, does it?

So if you wave your wallet over the terminal: security: 0.
Skimming risk: 100.

Great.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2022, 09:07:00 pm »
It is much harder to skim them than they typically make it sound. Also, NFC is an active request response. So, any skimming would require a transaction to be performed on the spot. And to perform the transaction you need to have a valid account with the bank. You can't resell card numbers on the dark net or whatever.

Just don't buy into paranoia and your life would be much better.

I love NFC, spares me the need to plug in the card into dirty slots. Also, less scratching on the plastic.
Alex
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2022, 09:14:03 pm »
On the other hand, I now have to place the cards in special sheaths to avoid skimming from a criminal walking by. Result: the cards no longer fit in my wallet slots. Inconvenience: 100.
Placing together 2-3 cards with RFID is way more effective than all of those shielding wallets. Actually it would be way more effective to make a wallet with a built-in jamming device like this https://www.amazon.com/TICONN-RFID-Blocking-Cards-Contactless/dp/B07T8PYBKM#
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 09:16:35 pm by wraper »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2022, 09:15:56 pm »
And yes, If you have more than one NFC card next to each other in the wallet, NFC does not work for either of them, they will just step on each other.
Alex
 
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Online Bud

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2022, 09:31:14 pm »
Yep, it's the "tap" function.
But "some banks" doesn't really help, does it?

So if you wave your wallet over the terminal: security: 0.
Skimming risk: 100.

Great.

Can you provide a real life Single example of this skimming happened which caused an unauthorized transaction by the skimmer ?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Online BentaTopic starter

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2022, 09:59:30 pm »
Placing together 2-3 cards with RFID is way more effective than all of those shielding wallets.

No. I tested this already 10 years ago in an RFID project. Stacking 5...10 cards on the reader surface was no issue. They were all read.
NFC might be more tricky.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2022, 10:09:12 pm »
Can some one explain the advantages of NFC on payment cards? Apart from making a hipster look cool, of course.

Sticking the card into a reader instead of putting it on top of it is no major benefit to me. I still have to retrieve it from my wallet and replace it again, which is the biggest part of the operation. Benefit ~0.

On the other hand, I now have to place the cards in special sheaths to avoid skimming from a criminal walking by. Result: the cards no longer fit in my wallet slots. Inconvenience: 100.

On top of that, NFC transactions below 50 Euro require no PIN. Security risk: 100.

The idiot that thought of this should be... (add own wish).

it is extreme convenient and the risk is minimal, the reader cannot read my card when it my wallet is closed so the card is next to two other cards, but it can read it when I flip it open so the card is not next to the other cards 


 

Offline ANTALIFE

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2022, 10:23:51 pm »
I guess the other thing is wear & tear of EMV contacts (which NFC would not need to worry about). Like I know SIM card connectors are typically rated for 5,000 cycles, and suspect EMV contacts are a few orders of magnitude more

EDIT: 7361E0225S05LF is an assembly that's rated for 200,000 cycles, while 7311S0725A06LF is a bare connector rated for 10,000 cycles. Lets say we use the connector 100 times a day and ~35,000 times a year. So 7361E0225S05LF is expected to "last" ~6yrs which is not too bad, but 7311S0725A06LF will likely have issues within the first year
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 10:37:02 pm by ANTALIFE »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2022, 10:32:13 pm »
My bank used to issue cards for 2 years and by the time 2 years rolled in, the card was all scratched and bent out of shape. And there is no chance I used it anywhere close to 5000 times. So, plastic is the most affected part. At least in my experience.

The new cards are issued for 4 years, and without the need to plug it in or swipe, there is way less physical wear on the card.
Alex
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2022, 10:36:25 pm »
I can pay with a phone with NFC, and I cannot stick it into a POS terminal.
If you are unhappy with the 50 EUR transaction limit, you can only do that 3-4 times a day, there is a cap on it. Don't loose your card, duh.
 

Offline ANTALIFE

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2022, 10:38:30 pm »
My bank used to issue cards for 2 years and by the time 2 years rolled in, the card was all scratched and bent out of shape. And there is no chance I used it anywhere close to 5000 times. So, plastic is the most affected part. At least in my experience.

The new cards are issued for 4 years, and without the need to plug it in or swipe, there is way less physical wear on the card.

Sorry I meant the EMV contacts/connector on the PCBA, not the actual card itself

Online mariush

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2022, 10:42:25 pm »
I don't even carry my cards with me.  I have the banks app on my android phone and use phone's NFC feature to pay for things.  Works in stores, works in buses or trams... costs approx.  50 eurocents a ride and just have to bring the phone close to the thing, no need to search in my pockets for the wallet and pull out a single card, enter a pin while everyone watches and so on, not to mention it's more sanitary not to touch keypads these days

Can even withdraw money from ATMs without my cards... just go in the app, enter some amount and I get a unique code as a text that's valid for a few minutes. Enter the code in the ATM and the amount and it spits out my money.

As for wallets, there are modern wallets that can shield cards until you remove them ... ex : https://www.amazon.com/Ridge-Authentic-Minimalist-Blocking-Wallet/dp/B01M5J3NB1/
No need to have chunky wallets holding 100 things
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 10:45:28 pm by mariush »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2022, 10:49:47 pm »
Sorry I meant the EMV contacts/connector on the PCBA, not the actual card itself
Yes, this stuff must be robust and I assume they would be designed for somewhat easy maintenance. Those contacts can get 5000 insertions a day easily.
Alex
 

Offline rob77

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2022, 11:13:37 pm »
Can some one explain the advantages of NFC on payment cards? Apart from making a hipster look cool, of course.

Sticking the card into a reader instead of putting it on top of it is no major benefit to me. I still have to retrieve it from my wallet and replace it again, which is the biggest part of the operation. Benefit ~0.

On the other hand, I now have to place the cards in special sheaths to avoid skimming from a criminal walking by. Result: the cards no longer fit in my wallet slots. Inconvenience: 100.

On top of that, NFC transactions below 50 Euro require no PIN. Security risk: 100.

The idiot that thought of this should be... (add own wish).

apparently your knowledge in the area is absolute zero... old fashion embossed cards are the security risk 100 :)

a criminal can't skim your contactless card , there is absolutely no usable attack vector in existence which would the attacker allow to skim your card and actually get the money. 
only option would be to have a contract signed with a payment processor to get a terminal and go outside swiping people with the terminal and then get arrested sooner than you receive the summary payment of the transactions you "collected" :-DD :-DD :-DD
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2022, 02:21:41 am »
Sorry I meant the EMV contacts/connector on the PCBA, not the actual card itself
Yes, this stuff must be robust and I assume they would be designed for somewhat easy maintenance. Those contacts can get 5000 insertions a day easily.

The thing is, for the ones I've used, there is no way you as an end user can take it apart to fix any pins.
As soon as you look at it the wrong way, its going to brick itself and you have to send back to the manufacturer to repair it and re-load whatever software keys.
Many will fail before they reach rated insertions, because of dirty or bad cards bending the pins.

NFC is so much better in terms of maintenance, zero wear on any components.
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Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2022, 02:35:50 am »
I have no idea why this works the way it does, but here in the northwestern US tap payments process in 2-5 seconds while reading the chip and processing takes 5-10 seconds.  I know that doesn't sound like much, but it is enough to heavily weight my preference for the NFC method.

The process is also less user involved.  You wave your card over the sensor and when it beeps you are done and can start putting it back in your wallet.  The reader requires more precision to insert the card and the feedback is a screen message that the card has been properly inserted (requires visual attention).  After whatever delay another screen message and usually and audio cue lets you know you can remove the card.  So perceptually the tap is one step while the card reader involves two.
 

Offline SmallCog

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2022, 03:08:22 am »
I'm gathering by your rant that this technology is somewhat new there? Or has it only just upset you

I'm surprised if it's new, I reckon it's been here for about 10 years, and nobody I know has ever been skimmed.

Personally I don't carry my wallet around. We have the option to use digital drivers licenses here, and my phone has my card details in it for tap payments.

These are secured via finger print.

If I loose my phone or it's stolen neither my money or license are available or of much use to anyone unless I've lost my finger at the same time, unlike if I lost my physical cards.
 

Offline georges80

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2022, 03:12:59 am »
I've just linked my most often used cards onto my phone app. Phone is in pocket or in my hand, takes mere seconds to tap & pay and the phone app logs the transaction so you can keep an eye on your spending.

As stated above, at least in the US (where they have steam powered computers I guess), the insert/read process takes 5 - 10 seconds and you have to keep an eye on the stupid POS display for when you can 'remove' the card. Tap & pay is essentially instantaneous and touchless.

Some times you have to move with the times. At the very least covid accelerated tap & pay in the US - it was pretty uncommon a couple+ years ago. In oz tap & pay has been in use for many years and is available pretty well everywhere.

cheers,
george.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2022, 01:30:13 pm »

I like having my payment methods independent of my phone (i.e. carrying a stack of cards + some cash) -  'cause you never know, and I'd hate having my wallet exposed to the risk of running out of battery lol!  :D

A few years ago, there was a severe weather outage here, no power for almost a week.  Gas stations were running generators to keep the shop and pumps lit.  The problem was, the comms network was down, so they accepted cash only - no phone apps, no credit cards, just good old reliable paper money!   I felt vindicated carrying some old fashioned bills, and was able to fill my car... 
 

Offline DiTBho

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2022, 11:15:31 pm »
NFC + Smartwatch = Appeal

You can pay contactless for your train tickets, tube tickets, just turning the wrist of the hand and your finger to confirm.
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Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2022, 11:21:13 pm »

I like having my payment methods independent of my phone (i.e. carrying a stack of cards + some cash) -  'cause you never know, and I'd hate having my wallet exposed to the risk of running out of battery lol!  :D

A few years ago, there was a severe weather outage here, no power for almost a week.  Gas stations were running generators to keep the shop and pumps lit.  The problem was, the comms network was down, so they accepted cash only - no phone apps, no credit cards, just good old reliable paper money!   I felt vindicated carrying some old fashioned bills, and was able to fill my car...

Having backups and alternate methods is wise whatever you use as a primary.  During the pandemic many stores were not accepting cash.
 

Offline retiredfeline

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2022, 11:28:41 pm »
Most useless? Certainly not when Covid was rampant and people here were paranoid about touching keypads because of fomite transmission. As a payment method it had already been established before that, but it took off in 2020. I daresay tap to pay is now the principal payment method these days.
 

Offline SmallCog

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Re: Credit Card, Bank Card NFC. The most useless function every invented
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2022, 01:43:06 am »

I like having my payment methods independent of my phone (i.e. carrying a stack of cards + some cash) -  'cause you never know, and I'd hate having my wallet exposed to the risk of running out of battery lol!  :D

A few years ago, there was a severe weather outage here, no power for almost a week.  Gas stations were running generators to keep the shop and pumps lit.  The problem was, the comms network was down, so they accepted cash only - no phone apps, no credit cards, just good old reliable paper money!   I felt vindicated carrying some old fashioned bills, and was able to fill my car...

Always a good idea to have a little cash on you, and independent means of payment.

Personally I have $20 on me as a "just in case" and it's not uncommon for me to have the same $20 note for months without spending it.

I also have an account with a separate bank that uses a separate card network (visa/mastercard) with about a months worth of spending in the account as a just-in-case for bank outages, identity theft, etc.

I don't however see the need to carry large amounts of cash. I have some cash in a safe place for situations like you described but I don't see the need to carry it everywhere I go.

Been a while since I've seen paper money, we moved to more durable (and colourful) notes years ago
 
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