Author Topic: Crimpers for automotive  (Read 2123 times)

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Offline DoctorJellyTopic starter

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Crimpers for automotive
« on: March 07, 2024, 04:02:26 pm »
Background: harley mechanic
Need: preferably 1 set of crimpers with hot swap dies to do basic electrical crimps (seen them all over amazon), but also more advanced stuff like molex, deutsch, wire seals, etc
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2024, 06:13:49 pm »
Search for "Engineer PAD-11 PAD-12 PAD-13".
"Engineer" is a brand name of a Japanese firm, everything I've tried from them has been top quality.
 
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Offline ksjh

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2024, 06:52:00 pm »
I own and use the Engineer PAD-11/12/13 set. It is good quality. But I think that for water-tight automotive connectors, you need additional/alternative tools, for example, the IWISS/iCrimp KIT-DC01 for Deutsch and Weather/Metri Pack or something like the ASTA A-RC3ST for the AMP Superseal 1.5mm series. I have not yet found a tool set with changeable dies for all these purposes.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2024, 10:16:23 pm »
I would not buy the Engineer crimpers, they are non-ratcheting.

Its not clear what types you are talking about but basic insulated crimp tool is only $30: https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-Ratcheting-Crimper-10-22/dp/B07WMB61J5/

Is that what you meant by "electrical crimps"? or something else.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 10:17:58 pm by thm_w »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2024, 12:24:22 am »
I would not buy the Engineer crimpers, they are non-ratcheting.
Agreed. If you use a non-ratcheting crimper, you might as well crimp contacts using your teeth. Crimping is a cold-flow process and a non-ratcheting crimper simply can't develop the pressure on the jaws needed to take the metal beyond the point where it starts to flow.

For Deutsch / AMP Superseal, a Heschen HS-03BC works OK for prototyping work. For anything professional or what needs to be durable / reliable, do yourself a favour and get the official crimper. It will be easier to work with and result in connections meeting quality standards.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 12:34:38 am by nctnico »
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Offline Smokey

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2024, 01:20:15 am »
I would not buy the Engineer crimpers, they are non-ratcheting.
Agreed. If you use a non-ratcheting crimper, you might as well crimp contacts using your teeth. Crimping is a cold-flow process and a non-ratcheting crimper simply can't develop the pressure on the jaws needed to take the metal beyond the point where it starts to flow.
....

Bro.. sounds like you need to hit the gym, bro-sef!  Work on that grip strength, Bro-Jackson!
.... Do you even crimp????   :)
 
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Offline notsob

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2024, 02:20:27 am »
As a guideline, have a look at what Rhintoools in Australia sell - you should be able to find similar near you

https://rhinotools.com.au/product-category/crimping-tools/automotive-crimping-tools/
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2024, 03:10:04 pm »
As a guideline, have a look at what Rhintoools in Australia sell - you should be able to find similar near you

https://rhinotools.com.au/product-category/crimping-tools/automotive-crimping-tools/
As expected you can buy the exact same crimpers for less from Aliexpress. Search for Cinlin or Iwiss crimpers.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DoctorJellyTopic starter

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2024, 04:51:30 pm »
Appreciate you all! Busy season starting up and I was getting frustrated trying to find a master kit. With everybody's help I think I can piece together a kit that suits my needs. Would be nice if the dies were machined instead of MIM, but beggars can't be choosers!
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2024, 07:11:49 pm »
Crimping is a cold-flow process and a non-ratcheting crimper simply can't develop the pressure on the jaws needed to take the metal beyond the point where it starts to flow.

You are mixing two orthogonal things up. While ratcheting is an excellent feature because it prevents losing the force mid-way and forces the user to push till the end (which is usually adjustable) to release, it has nothing to do with the force per se; force comes just from the lever action so placement of the pivot point relative to the die, length of the handles; design of the handles is also important because if it is uncomfortable to press, then users are less likely to use enough force. But even for a non-ratcheting design, if those force-related details are well engineered then it's really fine.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2024, 07:27:59 pm »
Crimping is a cold-flow process and a non-ratcheting crimper simply can't develop the pressure on the jaws needed to take the metal beyond the point where it starts to flow.

You are mixing two orthogonal things up. While ratcheting is an excellent feature because it prevents losing the force mid-way and forces the user to push till the end (which is usually adjustable) to release, it has nothing to do with the force per se; force comes just from the lever action so placement of the pivot point relative to the die, length of the handles; design of the handles is also important because if it is uncomfortable to press, then users are less likely to use enough force. But even for a non-ratcheting design, if those force-related details are well engineered then it's really fine.
The latter is the problem. It is not well engineered. The relatively thin ends of a tool like the 'engineer' pliers are way too flexible to produce the required pressure. If you can squeeze that hard (which is unlikely). A ratcheted crimper produces way more force on the crimp for the same input due to how the mechanism works to amplify the force from the handles to the die. So no, I'm not mixing anything up. Just take a ratcheting crimper and notice how the amount of travel of the jaws is reduced for each 'click' the jaws close further but the travel distance for the handle stays more or less constant. There is also a typical difference between the cheap Chinese crimpers and the professional ones. The professional ones typically have a much more sturdy construction (more steel plates in parallel or thick solid steel) compared to the cheap crimpers.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 08:15:41 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2024, 08:41:05 pm »
As a guideline, have a look at what Rhintoools in Australia sell - you should be able to find similar near you

https://rhinotools.com.au/product-category/crimping-tools/automotive-crimping-tools/
As expected you can buy the exact same crimpers for less from Aliexpress. Search for Cinlin or Iwiss crimpers.
Without seeing them up close and testing them, we cannot say whether those are the "exact same" tools or not. Iwiss and co slavishly copy others' tool designs, so the fact that they look the same doesn't mean they are the same. And as you surely know, in crimping, where success and failure comes down to tiny fractions of a millimeter, a glancing (or even close!) similarity simply doesn't mean anything.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2024, 08:44:12 pm »
Appreciate you all! Busy season starting up and I was getting frustrated trying to find a master kit. With everybody's help I think I can piece together a kit that suits my needs. Would be nice if the dies were machined instead of MIM, but beggars can't be choosers!
I highly suggest trying to get used or surplus original tools instead of no-name stuff. Cheap crimpers suck. If you'll be using this for your own pet projects, you may be willing to live with the risk of poor crimps coming apart. But if it's for customer work, invest in the real tools. Your customers, and your reputation, will appreciate it. Note also that original tools are generally easier to use (because they have locators to hold the terminals for you), which saves a lot of time (and thus money) and reduces errors.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2024, 09:07:49 pm »
As a guideline, have a look at what Rhintoools in Australia sell - you should be able to find similar near you

https://rhinotools.com.au/product-category/crimping-tools/automotive-crimping-tools/
As expected you can buy the exact same crimpers for less from Aliexpress. Search for Cinlin or Iwiss crimpers.
Without seeing them up close and testing them, we cannot say whether those are the "exact same" tools or not. Iwiss and co slavishly copy others' tool designs, so the fact that they look the same doesn't mean they are the same. And as you surely know, in crimping, where success and failure comes down to tiny fractions of a millimeter, a glancing (or even close!) similarity simply doesn't mean anything.
I'm 100% sure. AUD150 (90 euro) doesn't buy you professional or quality crimping tools. Only Chinese rebadges with a big markup.

Even with brand names you have to be careful. For example, nowadays Gedore which is regarded as a high quality brand for tools, has a made-in-Asia economy line called Gedore Red.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 12:17:12 am by nctnico »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2024, 12:15:34 am »
Even at that price point there are differences in quality. That’s true even at the $15 AliExpress price point. There are numerous manufacturers of Chinese junk tools, of varying quality.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2024, 05:47:02 am »
Those Klein are insulated crimpers, I agree you do need ratcheting crimpers for those.

However the Engineer crimp set is designed to cover the plethora of random crimps found in automotive.... and there are a hell of a lot. The PAD sets cover 90% of these (notable exception Deutsch).
If you want to order the proper official manufacturer set for every crimp family, be prepared to spend multiple thousands (not to mention the waiting).

Of course they are not perfect, if you find yourself doing lots of the same crimp then best invest in something specific. But these are great for covering one offs or a few specials.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2024, 08:59:36 am »
If you want to order the proper official manufacturer set for every crimp family, be prepared to spend multiple thousands (not to mention the waiting).
The waiting…? Huh? They’re usually in stock somewhere.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2024, 09:49:35 am »
The latter is the problem. It is not well engineered. The relatively thin ends of a tool like the 'engineer' pliers are way too flexible to produce the required pressure. If you can squeeze that hard (which is unlikely). A ratcheted crimper produces way more force on the crimp for the same input due to how the mechanism works to amplify the force from the handles to the die. So no, I'm not mixing anything up. Just take a ratcheting crimper and notice how the amount of travel of the jaws is reduced for each 'click' the jaws close further but the travel distance for the handle stays more or less constant. There is also a typical difference between the cheap Chinese crimpers and the professional ones. The professional ones typically have a much more sturdy construction (more steel plates in parallel or thick solid steel) compared to the cheap crimpers.

Well, I have used some very large crimpers for 100-200 mm^2 wire lugs, without the ratchet function, and they have been just fine, with handles almost a meter long. Hydraulic crimp tool would be easier to carry around and use and offer better force density, but really a lever provides the same force amplification, it's known for thousands of years.

About the quality of the Engineer crimp tool, have you actually tried those? I haven't, but have mostly heard good and it's a well known high quality brand. It is very difficult to say from the photos how they really perform. So do you have real experience of this exact product or just generic :blah: ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 09:51:31 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2024, 10:18:39 am »
https://www.engineertools-jp.com/crimpingstripping

I use the Enginner PA-09 and PA-20, intended for electronic engineer stuff but might be suitable for some pin styles used on automotive, not sure.

To me, these crimpers are indispensable because they do a reasonable job and are very versatile, usable on lots of crimps. However, they need care to use. I have to use magnifiers to see that I am placing the wire and crimp correctly before pressing. There are no guides that you would get on expensive crimping pliers designed for specific crimps.

If versatility is important, I would recommend the Engineer tools.
If you are doing a lot of the same style of crimp, spend the money and get specialist tool.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2024, 05:50:17 pm »
The latter is the problem. It is not well engineered. The relatively thin ends of a tool like the 'engineer' pliers are way too flexible to produce the required pressure. If you can squeeze that hard (which is unlikely). A ratcheted crimper produces way more force on the crimp for the same input due to how the mechanism works to amplify the force from the handles to the die. So no, I'm not mixing anything up. Just take a ratcheting crimper and notice how the amount of travel of the jaws is reduced for each 'click' the jaws close further but the travel distance for the handle stays more or less constant. There is also a typical difference between the cheap Chinese crimpers and the professional ones. The professional ones typically have a much more sturdy construction (more steel plates in parallel or thick solid steel) compared to the cheap crimpers.

Well, I have used some very large crimpers for 100-200 mm^2 wire lugs, without the ratchet function, and they have been just fine, with handles almost a meter long. Hydraulic crimp tool would be easier to carry around and use and offer better force density, but really a lever provides the same force amplification, it's known for thousands of years.

About the quality of the Engineer crimp tool, have you actually tried those? I haven't, but have mostly heard good and it's a well known high quality brand. It is very difficult to say from the photos how they really perform. So do you have real experience of this exact product or just generic :blah: ?
You really underestimate what is involved in crimping. I don't and from there, I can simply see the engineer pliers are no good. A good crimp is more than just folding the tabs over the wires in a neat way.

As I wrote before, crimping is a cold flow / cold welding process which requires extreme pressures. The goal is to weld the contact to the wire so they become one single piece of metal. Only then, and only then you'll get a connection which is resistant to vibration, corrossion and thermal cycling. Keep in mind that contacts and wires are dissimilar materials with different temperate expansion coefficients so thermal cycling is going to have an effect when the tabs of a contact are just clamped around the wire (instead of welded).

But let's apply some back on the envelope math:

In this PDF https://mtmmachines.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/MTM-TP-Cold-Welding-R0.pdf it says that for cold welding to happen, you need to apply pressures over 12000kg/cm^2 (= 120kg/mm^2).

If you take a Molex KK-256 contact for example, the crimping area is about 6mm^2. For the cold welding process to happen you'll need 6*120 = 720kg of force on the jaws. Say you get a 1 to 7 lever effect from the Engineer PAD-11 (which is advertised for use with Molex KK-256), you'll need to produce a force of 720 / 7 =  103kg with your hands. An average man can produce 49kg of force by hand in his prime years. All this while assuming the Engineer pliers do not bend when they need to cope with these kind of forces. I hope this makes it clear that the engineer pliers are not suitable for reliable crimps as they simply can't produce the pressure required for the cold welding process. I hope it also shows why the likes of Molex, JST, etc don't supply simple crimping pliers for use with their crimp contacts; these won't create reliable crimp connections.

As a side note: hydraulic crimpers for big lugs can apply tens of tonnes of force to the crimping dies in order to make the cold weld process happen.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 07:45:05 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2024, 07:46:14 pm »
But let's apply some back on the envelope math:

In this PDF https://mtmmachines.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/MTM-TP-Cold-Welding-R0.pdf it says that for cold welding to happen, you need to apply pressures over 12000kg/cm^2 (= 120kg/mm^2).

If you take a Molex KK-256 contact for example, the crimping area is about 6mm^2. For the cold welding process to happen you'll need 6*120 = 720kg of force on the jaws. Say you get a 1 to 7 lever effect from the Engineer PAD-11 (which is advertised for use with Molex KK-256), you'll need to produce a force of 720 / 7 =  103kg with your hands. An average man can produce 49kg of force by hand in his prime years. All this while assuming the Engineer pliers do not bend when they need to cope with these kind of forces. I hope this makes it clear that the engineer pliers are not suitable for reliable crimps as they simply can't produce the pressure required for the cold welding process. I hope it also shows why the likes of Molex, JST, etc don't supply simple crimping pliers for use with their crimp contacts; these won't create reliable crimp connections.

The problem with "back of the envelope" calculations are while they are excellent to rule out ideas that are wrong by many orders of magnitude, being too close the actual numbers and their suitability for the case starts to matter. So you say producing 103kg of force with your hands is a problem. It sure is, but is 10kg, which would be off by just 10x?

So let's question your numbers, 120kg/mm^2 is a worst-case number "as high as" for a process which has absolutely nothing to do with cable crimping, but is a complete different process namely making mechanically robust joints between two sheet materials. I can imagine the force required is higher as the materials need to flow into each other deeper than when the idea is to just make a gas-tight electrically low-resistance joint as in crimping (where the deformation of the lug provides the mechanical support.)

And sure enough, if you take a look at for example https://uk.milwaukeetool.eu/en-gb/m18-force-logic-hydraulic-53-kn-cable-crimper/m18-hcct/ They claim they can crimp lugs for 300mm^2 wire. 300mm^2 wire lug has diameter of around 26mm or so, for a 10mm long crimp the surface area to apply pressure to is then 26mm*3.14*10mm = 800mm^2. Per your number, 120kg/mm^2 * 800mm^2 = 96000kg = 960 kN of force is needed to do that. Yet the Milwaukee only produces 53kN, less than a tenth of what you claim is needed. Does the Milwaukee live to its promises? I have no reason to doubt it. Now, can an adult apply 10kg of force with their hands? Sure they do, but doing that all day long would suck. Then again the Engineer product is not meant for all day long production work. I'm sure it survives the force of 100N for a long time, though.

So clearly the document which does not talk about wire crimping at all was not a very good resource, as expected. I understand why you chose it, though: it seems impossible to find any numerical data of electrical cable crimping pressure online. A lot of sources talk about how you should not apply "too little" or "too much", but no numbers.

Now I won't question the 1:7 lever ratio, from the photos it seems close.

Conclusion: calling something impossible by re-interpreting some numbers from completely out-of-context source is, while interesting, a risky business. I mean, all you need to do is to buy the tool and test it in real world use. Therefore I value the actual experience people are sharing, and the fact well known distributors keep selling this product, way higher than your theoretical back-of-the-envelope calculations trying to prove it would not work.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 08:02:55 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2024, 09:04:56 pm »
How do you get to using the circumfence for a process that applies pressure from 1 side? It doesn't make sense. Like in a vise, force from one side gets opposed from the other side. And judging by the image, the length of the Milwaukee crimp is far shorter than 10mm. Besides that it likely takes a bit more math & modelling to calculate the amount of force needed / applied to a die to deform / compress a big round object compared to a small object that can be simplified to being flat and square.

Also, generic tool specifications doesn't mean they are actually suitable for the job. Sales people dream up all kinds of specs. You'd have to check the manufacturer's specification for the lugs you are using. And thinking that because well known distributors sell something, it is a high quality or even a suitable product is a mistake. Farnell -for example- sells lots of crap like leaky squeeze bottles (FFS!) and rebranded Owon/Hantek gear. I have been calling their Multicomp brand 'Multicrap' for good reasons for years. I also don't trust people who just look at crimps and say 'that looks nice'. I want to see data from pull-tests, analysis of the cold-weld process, etc before I (recommend) use (of) general purpose crimpers for connections which need to be reliable.

To get back to your 300mm^2 lug example, for this 300mm^2 lug:
https://www.etscablecomponents.com/product/two-bolt-copper-cable-lug-300mmsup2sup-w-m12-stud-holes-ct-300-c/

The manufacturer recommends this 130kN hydraulic crimper:
https://products.cembre.com/en/usa-canada-mexico/product/ht131-c

So likely the Milwaukee you found is not going to cut it unless it crimps a shorter area compared to the Cembre crimper. Electrical code is likely to say few words about the lenght of the crimps.

Anyway, the OP is looking to crimp low power contacts so discussing 300mm^2 crimps is quite far off the point.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 01:18:34 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2024, 07:48:49 am »
OK, so nctnico's list of...

Well Known and Respected Tool Manufacturers Who Still Manufacture Unusable Tools as Based on nctnico's Napkin Calculations:

  • Engineer (the Japanese tool company)
  • Milwaukee (professional series)

More?

Quote
Anyway, the OP is looking to crimp low power contacts so discussing 300mm^2 crimps is quite far off the point.
Yeah, still closer than non-crimping application of cold welding. You are free to post sources that state crimping forces for smaller connectors. I did not find any so I scaled down from a 300mm^2 crimp application for which numbers were available. Still closer than your non-crimping application.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 07:57:47 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2024, 07:30:01 pm »
I'm no expert on mechanical calculations, so this is a genuine question...
Doesn't the mechanical force need to take into account the area onto which it is applied? I.e the smaller the surface being crimped the larger the force acting on the crimp will be for the same input force and lever ratio?

But back to the real world, there are a hell of a lot of different crimps out there, probably thousands. Even if you take the 80/20 principle there are dozens of different crimps that a hobbyist or small workshop will come across. Hell even a large firm wont want to purchase expensive tooling for small volume or prototypes, so "good enough" tools often are well.... good enough.

I've made some very complicated looms for CAT and Deutz engines, if you are unlucky enough to have to build your own Exhaust After Treatment loom (don't do it kids), then this alone can be dozens of different styles of crimps. The PAD range is the best I've seen for getting close enough, and with some careful checking we have never had an issue (and these do on crushing and screening equipment so get a hell of a shaking).

Would I want these used on high volume production or safety critical equipment, probably not. But for most applications these are more than good enough.
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Crimpers for automotive
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2024, 07:50:05 pm »
Hi,

A pull test will confirm the huge difference between a non-ratchet crimp result, and one done with a ratcheting crimper.
You can do that test using a tool that looks like a luggage weighing hanging device, but one that stores the value. After seeing the difference, you won't ever want to go back to non-ratchet (apart from non-critical use like prototypes for lab use).
For automotive, I'd be really unhappy to know if the engineer used a non-ratchet crimper.
 


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