Beware buying stuff from US electronics store!

[Fluxed Matter]

I must be one of those suspicious people then.  Can't see myself getting a facebook account any time soon.   

Guess we are both suspicious because I not getting one either 

[IvoS]

Me neither, I hate Facebook!

[GK]

I bought an Atmel chip from Digikey earlier this year and got grilled about it as it was on some list of restricted devices.  Had to sign a form basically saying I was using it for good, not evil before they'd release the order!

I had a similar issue (but not ordering Atmel chips). They refused to process my order until I sent a scan of my drivers licence!

[westfw]

You know, if "they" conduct completely random searches/etc at airports, everyone thinks them silly and cruel (if that randomness happens to intersect assorted minority groups like the disabled.)  If they look for "suspicious" clues and behavior, they get accused of racial profiling, discrimination, and thug-like behavior.  It's a hard job to do well, and impossible to keep everyone happy.  Whether  you like it or not, being an electronics hobbyist really does mean that you are statistically more likely to build an electronic bomb timer.  And those lists didn't seem all that unreasonable in terms of defining "suspicious" behavior, either.  (Aside from both "unusual interest" and "no interest" about certain topics both being suspicious.)

If you're willing to let it affect your behavior, that's your problem.  Don't forget that it'd probably be much more dangerous to piss off your neighbor by trimming his tree that overhangs your yard, so that he calls an "anonymous tip" into some agency.

"MAKE like no one is watching."

[poptones]

I don't think a bomb timer is the worry here. You can buy an alarm clock at wal-mart, and it's easy to rig a cellphone to detonate an explosive when it gets a call, that's how many AEDs work.

The lists are not reasonable. I live in a city and if you asked me whether I think it most important that we be able to travel without being treated like we're potential terrorists or whether I value most feeling safe, I can tell you in a heartbeat I worry more driving home than I worry about a bomb going off. I worry way more about the potential of having fucking drones circling my house 24/7 than I worry about being in a car wreck - and I'm a very cautious driver. The TSA is not reasonable. Asking law abiding citizens in public places for their ID hundreds of miles inland from international borders is not reasonable. Fortunately I can avoid the TSA mess by simply not flying, which I do, but that doesn't mean I tolerate it glibly.

I can check my mirror at lights to make sure no one is about to rear end me. But I have no way of knowing what lists I am on, or what behavior might make me "suspicious" to some overzealous witch hunter. Governments are supposed to govern at the pleasure of the people, not through cloak and dagger and the barrel of a gun.

[RCMR]

You could be reported for being a terrorist! 
http://info.publicintelligence.net/FBI-SuspiciousActivity/Electronic_Stores.pdf

And in hobby shops too:
http://info.publicintelligence.net/FBI-SuspiciousActivity/Hobby_Shops.pdf

Hey Dave, I've never done things by halves....

Here's what got me on the watchlists:  $5,000 DIY Cruise Missile

Despite this, I managed to sneak in and out of the USA back in 2003, right under their noses.  US "intelligence".

And if you think the NZ governments dirty-dealing with respect to Kim Dotcom is new -- well I can report, from first-hand experience, that it's not!

An NZ "current affairs" programme did a piece on my activities (almost a decade ago now):




And, since I've posted this to your forums, you are *NOW* on a watchlist for sure 

[EEVblog]

And, since I've posted this to your forums, you are *NOW* on a watchlist for sure 

I'm starting to lose count!
Is there a prize when you reach a certain number of lists? 

Do you tick "yes" to those silly US export questionnaires you get hit with at Digikey et.al 

When is the book coming out BTW?

Dave.

[David_AVD]

Do you tick "yes" to those silly US export questionnaires you get hit with at Digikey et.al 

When I buy from Digikey, there's no option but to give them the info.  No info = no order release.

[HardBoot]

And did you notice that Arduino people are in real trouble?

Fills a “shopping list” of components lacking knowledge about specifications
and uses

Possessing little knowledge of activity for which the purchase
is intended.

Good thing I buy all my parts from Asia... I've bought lots of parts without knowing what to do with them.

Having a wide selection of stuff to fiddle with is fun, and you don't have to wait ages to get things you need for something.

[JoannaK]

An NZ "current affairs" programme did a piece on my activities (almost a decade ago now):




And, since I've posted this to your forums, you are *NOW* on a watchlist for sure 

Hmm.. Should we watch those videos too? Or would it be to suspicious?   

[Alana]

USA added to my list of countries "do not go without working flying saucer for quick and quiet evacuation" ;-)

And for real, as someone mentioned there is way too much data to be processed and because of that - statistically we are quite safe, even if we live or would go to the USA.
But it's still crazy, especially that this kind of change in USA was described in several sci-fi stories I've read as a child.

[EEVblog]

And for real, as someone mentioned there is way too much data to be processed and because of that - statistically we are quite safe, even if we live or would go to the USA.
But it's still crazy, especially that this kind of change in USA was described in several sci-fi stories I've read as a child.

And it's looking to be a case of "you ain't seen nothing yet".
Scary.

Dave.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do you tick "yes" to those silly US export questionnaires you get hit with at Digikey et.al 

When I buy from Digikey, there's no option but to give them the info.  No info = no order release.

I really don't understand why people moan about this - yes it's stupid, but if you object, just make something up.
It's way better than Mouser's system, which can delay orders by a day or two if you happen to order something dangerous like an Xbee module. 

[David_AVD]

I usually just put something simple for the parts use.  Sometimes I use "various retail customers" for the end user part.

Most of the time it's not a big hassle, just annoying.  Having the order delayed due to a chip that could be used in an encryption application is what ticks me off.  There's no prior warning and the time difference means it can add another day or two to an order we needed ASAP.

[Achilles]

Well, I needed an Amphenol connector about half a year ago and ordered it in the USA (as it was much less expensive there). They shortly answered me that they need a letter by me for customs where I give my data and describe what I want to do with the connector.

Well, it was a Mil-Spec one, but what the fuck....it's a connector not a bomb.

US regulations are strange. You can buy a gun without bigger efforts, but you are considered a terrorist if you order the wrong solder-wire 

...just a reason for me to stay away from / out of the US as much as possible (sorry to you US folks around here )


.....and now I'll watch the Cruise Missile DIY...Thanks for that one

[poptones]

You can buy all kinds of guns, but don't think that doesn't put you on some lists. You don't think the spooks snoop the online gun forums and secessionist groups? Look what happened to Randy Weaver - just for being a bigoted dickhead who wanted to be left alone by society.

[ivan747]

The lists are OK. All of that is actually suspicious. I just hope clueless newbies don't get called terrorists. (an I hope no one gets really paranoid, questioning everyone).

[Achilles]

You can buy all kinds of guns, but don't think that doesn't put you on some lists. You don't think the spooks snoop the online gun forums and secessionist groups? Look what happened to Randy Weaver - just for being a bigoted dickhead who wanted to be left alone by society.

well, and you have quite a big lobby that supports "your rights" in terms of guns.....

If you get in trouble because you ordered quite some amounts of electronic components and they watch you because you're suspicious of building bombs, I am pretty sure nearly everybody will applause if they arrest you.
Some times it's ridiculous. You are also having lots of trouble if you are a photographer, as this is considered to be suspicious, too.

I remember some years ago when tripods weren't allowed anymore in railwaystations and so on. Then taking photos in general was getting forbidden there (can ask for a permission to shoot.....).

...well, and it's not about being on a list: The problem is more that you are guilty as they think you're suspicious. There was a time when you were not guilty until is was proven otherwise. Now it is turned around. You are guilty until it is approved that you're not....with all its charming consequences.

[bullet308]

I repeat:

The question is what do they DO with the information?

Is this a potential problem? Yes. Is this a problem that is actually manifesting itself in any concrete way at this time? Not that I can see...

[G7PSK]

I really did get snooped on at one time. My workshop was 150 meters from the perimeter of a large RAF base (Marham Norfolk) the phone was tapped, in order to do this all calls are automatically routed through an exchange in London. They also routed the calls in Northern Ireland through the same place, this all took place during the early 80's when there was trouble with the IRA, I used to get so many cross connections from Ulster that it was hilarious, after a while I got pissed of with this so I would make random calls to eastern Europe embassies and when the phone was answered I would say something cryptic like the "Vicar flies at dawn" or some other gibberish, the spooks must have had fun trying to decipher it. After a while the snooping stopped they must have caught on and realized that I was no terrorist or spy.       

[Bored@Work]

I repeat:

The question is what do they DO with the information?

Is this a potential problem? Yes. Is this a problem that is actually manifesting itself in any concrete way at this time? Not that I can see...

You know one typical way how accidents in safety critical systems (flying, trains, chemical plants, etc.) happen? All these systems have multiple safety systems in place. Each safety system alone is sufficient to prevent disaster. But still, at one point in time all safety systems fail and an accident happens.

Analysis of such disasters often show a particular pattern. Safety systems degraded over time, because "it still works", even if a particular safety procedure is not followed, people got lazy, adapt some bad behavior, rules were ignored. Because in the end it still works out, and who needs those pesky safety systems anyhow? Until that one day when the last safety system also breaks down and the thing goes kaboom.

And that is why every safety system is important. You never know if it happens to be the last one.  "It works", and "there is no problem until now" does not cut it. In case of the USA one can even argue that the last few safety systems in place are already razor thin, and did occasionally break down. Or how do you explain torture flights to helpful places in the middle east? That there is still one safety system in place that protects you personally (you probably have the right race), does not mean much. Tomorrow it might no longer protect you.

[bullet308]

I repeat:

The question is what do they DO with the information?

Is this a potential problem? Yes. Is this a problem that is actually manifesting itself in any concrete way at this time? Not that I can see...

You know one typical way how accidents in safety critical systems (flying, trains, chemical plants, etc.) happen? All these systems have multiple safety systems in place. Each safety system alone is sufficient to prevent disaster. But still, at one point in time all safety systems fail and an accident happens.

Analysis of such disasters often show a particular pattern. Safety systems degraded over time, because "it still works", even if a particular safety procedure is not followed, people got lazy, adapt some bad behavior, rules were ignored. Because in the end it still works out, and who needs those pesky safety systems anyhow? Until that one day when the last safety system also breaks down and the thing goes kaboom.

And that is why every safety system is important. You never know if it happens to be the last one.  "It works", and "there is no problem until now" does not cut it. In case of the USA one can even argue that the last few safety systems in place are already razor thin, and did occasionally break down. Or how do you explain torture flights to helpful places in the middle east? That there is still one safety system in place that protects you personally (you probably have the right race), does not mean much. Tomorrow it might no longer protect you.

Understood and agreed. There are risks associated with having such a system in place, much as there is with not having one. What usually happens is that somebody gets stupid with their shiny new toy and uses it in some way they clearly are not supposed to and then they get it taken away from them. We went through a round of that in the 1970s, you might recall, after abuses in the  Cold War '60s and Nixonian early '70s, resulting in restrictions that gravely complicated how the intelligence community responded to terrorist threats entering the early 2000s (including you-know-what). Its best to keep in mind that the pendulum governing how much free reign the intelligence community gets to play with has a funny way of biting us in the ass, no matter which end of its swing it is at.

[SgtRock]

Dear EEVBees:

--First it was DHS feeling up grandmothers from Minnesota to make sure certain groups did not feel slighted, then they released a memo saying to watch out for those veterans, next will be a BOLO for Boy Scouts. Meanwhile if anymore of our Ambassadors are slaughtered, the President stands ready with more apologies.

"Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw 1856 - 1950

Best Regards
Clear Ether