Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?

[hwj-d]

Hello, I am new to cryptocurrency, so the question is:

If bitcoins/altcoins are not physically stored in my wallet on the computer in some file, why can't I pay with them when using another computer/smartphone etc.? So they are stored in blockchain, and if I know the password I can pay with them from anywhere else?

Thanks for the answer.

Everyone in the world is looking at the same blockchain. If you use some bitcoin, it is an only one using in this stacked list. So, others see which amount on his account after synchronization results.

[nForce]

Hello, I am new to cryptocurrency, so the question is:

If bitcoins/altcoins are not physically stored in my wallet on the computer in some file, why can't I pay with them when using another computer/smartphone etc.? So they are stored in blockchain, and if I know the password I can pay with them from anywhere else?

Thanks for the answer.

Everyone in the world is looking at the same blockchain. If you use some bitcoin, it is an only one using in this stacked list. So, others see which amount on his account after synchronization results.

Ok, but with using my account and using my password I can only pay for the goods. The point is here, It could work like e-mail. You can use it anywhere, but only you know the password.

[Mr. Scram]

Sure but the gains are peanuts, especially compared to the total transactions taking place, unless something is very, very wrong with one of those currencies. The gains occurring with Bitcoin are many orders of magnitude beyond what is reasonable as a currency, and they're occurring purely based on wild speculation. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Bitcoin transactions taking place are speculative investment in the "currency" itself rather than trade in goods or services. A massive correction is inevitable.

That's how the financial markets work. Some products, with currency being a product, are more stable, and some are less stable. Sometimes even the biggest and most stable currencies correct themselves, like how the British pound recently lost a significant amount of value for such a stable currency. There's a lot of money to be made or lost with that. Typically, less stable products yields a bigger rewards, but also mean a bigger risk of losing your shirt. There's a wide array of products to invest in and ways to invest in them and each has it's own pros and cons. Some are super risky and others are a mostly safe bet with a small but consistent rewards.

If you take some precautions so that you don't lose it all when a correction comes, it can be interesting to benefit from the upwards motion to some.

[hendorog]

Hah, because I think differently to most people my friend

I am looking at it from a different perspective. You seem to be saying 'the textbook calls it a currency'. I am saying 'I can't buy a coffee with it'.

Bitcoin is not a practical currency. It wanted to be a currency, but currently is failing badly. Perhaps it can be fixed?

Once something turns bubbly then it could be tulips, currency, .com shares. It really makes no difference as none have any inherent value worth a damn at the end of the day. The inherent value argument does not apply once the 'thing' becomes a bubble.

There is no doubt that the vast majority of bitcoin transactions are trading on the price rising and very few transactions are actually using it as a currency. So it isn't actually used in real life as a currency very much.

Interestingly the bitcoin powers that be could 'print' more bitcoin if they chose to, by altering the difficulty factor to target some Bitcoin/USD rate instead of to an arbitrary block production target.

I can't exactly buy a coffee with some Albanian lek or Chilean pesos either. I'm fairly sure I could buy a lot more things relevant to me with some Bitcoin than said currencies. None of the other currencies have any inherent value. That's the whole point of them. It's a token value, so you can exchange services and good for value and vice versa.

Of course, and I expected you would say that You must consider the 'scope' of the currency under discussion of course. Bitcoin has a global scope which makes it a bit different.

The point is that to buy a $4 coffee with bitcoin would take some minutes, and would cost $20 or more in fees. There is a trade-off between the fee's you pay and the time it takes. This applies to small amounts to receive too - so if you pay someone $4 for a coffee right now it will cost them $24 to spend that money. The fees are changing all of the time so you could leave home able to buy something but when you get to the shop the fee's have gone up. That is pretty impractical IMHO.

I haven't done a full fee transaction in Bitcoin so I don't know what it the fastest time it can go through. Perhaps it can be fast enough to be useful, but it would cost me $20 USD or more to find out. It does become more practical as the amount of the transaction goes up, as long as that doesn't mean you are not consolidating small amounts into a larger amount.

And yes of course I agree that bitcoin has no inherent value. My point is simply that even if it did have inherent value it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in the current bubbly situation. The theoretical inherent value of the tulips and the .com shares did not change anything. I think we are both saying the same thing here.

[hendorog]

Hello, I am new to cryptocurrency, so the question is:

If bitcoins/altcoins are not physically stored in my wallet on the computer in some file, why can't I pay with them when using another computer/smartphone etc.? So they are stored in blockchain, and if I know the password I can pay with them from anywhere else?

Thanks for the answer.

Everyone in the world is looking at the same blockchain. If you use some bitcoin, it is an only one using in this stacked list. So, others see which amount on his account after synchronization results.

Ok, but with using my account and using my password I can only pay for the goods. The point is here, It could work like e-mail. You can use it anywhere, but only you know the password.

Yes I think you can use any computer, as long as you know your passphrase. You would need to restore your wallet using the passphrase on the other computer.

Bitcoin is clever enough to work out that you have already spent that money so you won't get away with spending it twice.

[hwj-d]

A massive correction is inevitable.

Yes. An unnatural destruktive regulation through speculators or/and gouverments, or natural constructive by itself. As simple as that. 

[Mr. Scram]

Of course, and I expected you would say that You must consider the 'scope' of the currency under discussion of course. Bitcoin has a global scope which makes it a bit different.

The point is that to buy a $4 coffee with bitcoin would take some minutes, and would cost $20 or more in fees. There is a trade-off between the fee's you pay and the time it takes. This applies to small amounts to receive too - so if you pay someone $4 for a coffee right now it will cost them $24 to spend that money. The fees are changing all of the time so you could leave home able to buy something but when you get to the shop the fee's have gone up. That is pretty impractical IMHO.

I haven't done a full fee transaction in Bitcoin so I don't know what it the fastest time it can go through. Perhaps it can be fast enough to be useful, but it would cost me $20 USD or more to find out. It does become more practical as the amount of the transaction goes up, as long as that doesn't mean you are not consolidating small amounts into a larger amount.

And yes of course I agree that bitcoin has no inherent value. My point is simply that even if it did have inherent value it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in the current bubbly situation. The theoretical inherent value of the tulips and the .com shares did not change anything. I think we are both saying the same thing here.

Did you actually check whether you can buy a coffee with Bitcoin? It seems you can buy coffee at Starbucks with Bitcoin at a nominal fee. That's pretty close to regular currency in my book and nowhere near the impractical situation you mention here. Until not long ago Steam also accepted Bitcoin for buying games. That's more convenient and less costly than, say, a person to person wire transfer in the US.

I get that people are wary, and probably rightfully so, but it's not as different as people purport it to be. It's a lot like a currency from a maybe not so stable nation. There's a lot to gain and a lot to lose.

[james_s]

That's how the financial markets work. Some products, with currency being a product, are more stable, and some are less stable. Sometimes even the biggest and most stable currencies correct themselves, like how the British pound recently lost a significant amount of value for such a stable currency. There's a lot of money to be made or lost with that. Typically, less stable products yields a bigger rewards, but also mean a bigger risk of losing your shirt. There's a wide array of products to invest in and ways to invest in them and each has it's own pros and cons. Some are super risky and others are a mostly safe bet with a small but consistent rewards.

If you take some precautions so that you don't lose it all when a correction comes, it can be interesting to benefit from the upwards motion to some.

The examples you cite are nowhere near the same magnitude. If a currency like the US dollar or UK pound gained or lost 3-4 orders of magnitude over a period of just a few years the effect would be catastrophic.

Yes it can be interesting to benefit from the upward motion, another term for that is "day trading", ie "gambling", you can absolutely benefit, and you can lose everything just as quickly as you can gain. This is not a stable long term investment, it is far to one end of the risk vs reward spectrum.

Whatever the case I predict a massive crash as the bubble pops within a year from now, virtually certain within 2 years. It will be interesting to see what people say at that point. Pretty much everyone advocating now is someone who has already bought into Bitcoin, thus it is in their interest to pump the value up higher by advocating others buy in.

[Mr. Scram]

The examples you cite are nowhere near the same magnitude. If a currency like the US dollar or UK pound gained or lost 3-4 orders of magnitude over a period of just a few years the effect would be catastrophic.

Yes it can be interesting to benefit from the upward motion, another term for that is "day trading", ie "gambling", you can absolutely benefit, and you can lose everything just as quickly as you can gain. This is not a stable long term investment, it is far to one end of the risk vs reward spectrum.

Whatever the case I predict a massive crash as the bubble pops within a year from now, virtually certain within 2 years. It will be interesting to see what people say at that point. Pretty much everyone advocating now is someone who has already bought into Bitcoin, thus it is in their interest to pump the value up higher by advocating others buy in.

What do you expect? Those are centuries old currencies, which is exactly the point I made in my previous post. Risk and reward and all that. Trading in those will not quickly lose you your shirt, but won't make you exactly rich overnight. People do trade with them, however, even though they're nothing but the empty promise of value.

I read the other day that people tend to invest in something, on average, for three to four months. People are not in it for long term stable investments. Everyone is constantly trading to make a quick buck, even in the traditional market.

Just to be clear, I don't own any Bitcoin. I have nothing to gain from it. I just want to be clear on what it is and what it isn't. People pretend that it's something completely new, but it's not that different. It also doesn't take a financial genius to know there will be a large setback sooner or later. People who are into Bitcoin know this. Looking at the handful of months people typically invest, that doesn't have to be a problem.

As always, the trick to speculation is diversifying. If you put everything in Bitcoin you stand to lose most of it.

[hwj-d]

Whatever the case I predict a massive crash as the bubble pops within a year from now, virtually certain within 5 years. It will be interesting to see what people say at that point, whohas not invested in cryptomoney.
 

[Mr. Scram]

Whatever the case I predict a massive crash as the bubble pops within a year from now, virtually certain within 5 years. It will be interesting to see what people say at that point, whohas not invested in cryptomoney.
 

Again, it doesn't exactly take a genius to see that this volatility goes both ways. I'm convinced most people are very aware of this.

[hendorog]

Of course, and I expected you would say that You must consider the 'scope' of the currency under discussion of course. Bitcoin has a global scope which makes it a bit different.

The point is that to buy a $4 coffee with bitcoin would take some minutes, and would cost $20 or more in fees. There is a trade-off between the fee's you pay and the time it takes. This applies to small amounts to receive too - so if you pay someone $4 for a coffee right now it will cost them $24 to spend that money. The fees are changing all of the time so you could leave home able to buy something but when you get to the shop the fee's have gone up. That is pretty impractical IMHO.

I haven't done a full fee transaction in Bitcoin so I don't know what it the fastest time it can go through. Perhaps it can be fast enough to be useful, but it would cost me $20 USD or more to find out. It does become more practical as the amount of the transaction goes up, as long as that doesn't mean you are not consolidating small amounts into a larger amount.

And yes of course I agree that bitcoin has no inherent value. My point is simply that even if it did have inherent value it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in the current bubbly situation. The theoretical inherent value of the tulips and the .com shares did not change anything. I think we are both saying the same thing here.

Did you actually check whether you can buy a coffee with Bitcoin? It seems you can buy coffee at Starbucks with Bitcoin at a nominal fee. That's pretty close to regular currency in my book and nowhere near the impractical situation you mention here. Until not long ago Steam also accepted Bitcoin for buying games. That's more convenient and less costly than, say, a person to person wire transfer in the US.

I get that people are wary, and probably rightfully so, but it's not as different as people purport it to be. It's a lot like a currency from a maybe not so stable nation. There's a lot to gain and a lot to lose.

Haha, no I didn't check all of the coffee shops, it was just an example.

Edit: https://foldapp.com/faq
Nothing there about fees that I can see, so the transfer from your wallet into there will attract the current fee. You can of course chose a low fee for the transfer, but it will take a long time to go through, if at all.

My understanding is that the fees are the fees unless you have access to a mining rig and can validate the transaction yourself. Starbucks must be subsidising the transaction for promotional purposes. That is not sustainable obviously.
There is an article in the news here about other companies who have dropped out of bitcoin because it is volatile, no-one is using it and because the fees are so high.

If you have a wallet with bitcoin in it just try it. I just did and the fee for a small purchase, where it is covered by a single transaction in my wallet, comes up as $34 NZD or 23.70 USD. I rounded down to $20 USD to keep it simple as the fees and the exchange rate are changing all of the time.

I _have_ been able to process a transaction at a lower fee than the recommended one - 65 satoshi/byte worked for me - but it took about a week or so to go through. That was a pleasant surprise as at least now I can get my money out of bitcoin without paying an enormous fee.

Since I had saved my bitcoin in small amounts the transaction fee multiplied up to a huge amount. This consolidating transaction was the only option and thankfully it worked.




 

[Mr. Scram]

There's way to work around the fees, which is exactly what Starbucks does. I could complain about it being stupidly expensive to wire money to someone else in the US, or I could figure out one of the many ways to do it cheaper. Just to remind people, it's typically something like $20, $25 or even $35 to wire someone money.

Nobody would buy a coffee if they had to pay $20 in fees for a $8 coffee.

[hwj-d]

Whatever the case I predict a massive crash as the bubble pops within a year from now, virtually certain within 5 years. It will be interesting to see what people say at that point, whohas not invested in cryptomoney.
 

Again, it doesn't exactly take a genius to see that this volatility goes both ways. I'm convinced most people are very aware of this.

What I mean by that is, that we are very likely to face the crash of our global usual financial system. And if most are aware of it, I do not know.

[hendorog]

There's way to work around the fees, which is exactly what Starbucks does. I could complain about it being stupidly expensive to wire money to someone else in the US, or I could figure out one of the many ways to do it cheaper. Just to remind people, it's typically something like $20, $25 or even $35 to wire someone money.

Nobody would buy a coffee if they had to pay $20 in fees for a $8 coffee.

It seems that one buys a Starbucks gift card with bitcoin. It isn't quite the same thing as buying a coffee directly with bitcoin.

To make it work you would need to buy about $100 worth of gift cards at one time, then the discount they give you balances the fee cost.

Fair enough, that might be practical if you drank coffee from Starbucks regularly. It wouldn't have worked in my situation though as I had too many small amounts in my wallet.

[Mr. Scram]

What I mean by that is, that we are very likely to face the crash of our global usual financial system. And if most are aware of it, I do not know.

Sooner or later you'll inevitably be right. Now if you could be specific, that would be much more interesting, and not quite as easy.

[Mr. Scram]

It seems that one buys a Starbucks gift card with bitcoin. It isn't quite the same thing as buying a coffee directly with bitcoin.

To make it work you would need to buy about $100 worth of gift cards at one time, then the discount they give you balances the fee cost.

Fair enough, that might be practical if you drank coffee from Starbucks regularly. It wouldn't have worked in my situation though as I had too many small amounts in my wallet.

The argument was that you can't buy a coffee with Bitcoin. In reality, it's easier and cheaper to buy coffee with Bitcoin than it is to wire someone the same money. That's not bad.

[hendorog]

It seems that one buys a Starbucks gift card with bitcoin. It isn't quite the same thing as buying a coffee directly with bitcoin.

To make it work you would need to buy about $100 worth of gift cards at one time, then the discount they give you balances the fee cost.

Fair enough, that might be practical if you drank coffee from Starbucks regularly. It wouldn't have worked in my situation though as I had too many small amounts in my wallet.

The argument was that you can't buy a coffee with Bitcoin. In reality, it's easier and cheaper to buy coffee with Bitcoin than it is to wire someone the same money. That's not bad.

To be fair my point was actually that it was impractical to buy coffee with bitcoin. Reading back now I did make the mistake of wording that incorrectly, which you have picked up on - fair enough it was my mistake.

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

[Mr. Scram]

To be fair my point was actually that it was impractical to buy coffee with bitcoin. Reading back now I did make the mistake of wording that incorrectly, which you have picked up on - fair enough it was my mistake.

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I'm not out to score points, just to discuss what I think was said. I thought the original point made was that you can't actually use Bitcoin. I see various places where you can, and people are also actually using it in those places. Is it as practical as the local currency? Certainly not. Is it more practical than anything but the local currency? That it does seem to be.

If you had to survive a month and had nothing but a handful of Bitcoin, and couldn't convert it to conventional currency, it seems to me that you would be fine, even if it takes a bit more effort to get things done.

[hwj-d]

What I mean by that is, that we are very likely to face the crash of our global usual financial system. And if most are aware of it, I do not know.

Sooner or later you'll inevitably be right. Now if you could be specific, that would be much more interesting, and not quite as easy.

The question was, what is the difference to specify that interest more to cryptocash or money as we know. We should give that independence "money" a chance, before that will happen. We should use it now, so that it will work in the future. That's the point, not to prove that today we can't buy a coffee.

[hendorog]

To be fair my point was actually that it was impractical to buy coffee with bitcoin. Reading back now I did make the mistake of wording that incorrectly, which you have picked up on - fair enough it was my mistake.

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I'm not out to score points, just to discuss what I think was said. I thought the original point made was that you can't actually use Bitcoin. I see various places where you can, and people are also actually using it in those places. Is it as practical as the local currency? Certainly not. Is it more practical than anything but the local currency? That it does seem to be.

If you had to survive a month and had nothing but a handful of Bitcoin, and couldn't convert it to conventional currency, it seems to me that you would be fine, even if it takes a bit more effort to get things done.

Yes that is where I have confused the issue. My point is that the entire monstrosity is impractical as a currency, and the difficulty around small transactions is just one of the issues. Consider the huge electricity consumption as well and I cannot see how it can continue.

Maybe there are options in the US to spend bitcoin - I assume that is where you are given you brought up Starbucks. You certainly wouldn't survive here in NZ on bitcoin alone - even the Starbucks promo is limited to certain countries, and NZ isn't on the list. Without converting it to another currency, or finding a person to act as a proxy, I don't think I could purchase anything here.

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

FWIW I am trying to cash in my rather small bitcoin stash. Even that is turning out to be painful. The company that I got the from have just conjured up a minimum purchase limit which I am just below.
Assuming I do manage to sell them to someone else, my wallet will be left with about $20 in it which was not part of my consolidating transaction. This means that it attracts a fee on its own, and since the fee is larger than the amount left in the wallet I will just have to leave it there...

[Freelander]

To be fair my point was actually that it was impractical to buy coffee with bitcoin. Reading back now I did make the mistake of wording that incorrectly, which you have picked up on - fair enough it was my mistake.

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I'm not out to score points, just to discuss what I think was said. I thought the original point made was that you can't actually use Bitcoin. I see various places where you can, and people are also actually using it in those places. Is it as practical as the local currency? Certainly not. Is it more practical than anything but the local currency? That it does seem to be.

If you had to survive a month and had nothing but a handful of Bitcoin, and couldn't convert it to conventional currency, it seems to me that you would be fine, even if it takes a bit more effort to get things done.

Yes that is where I have confused the issue. My point is that the entire monstrosity is impractical as a currency, and the difficulty around small transactions is just one of the issues. Consider the huge electricity consumption as well and I cannot see how it can continue.

Maybe there are options in the US to spend bitcoin - I assume that is where you are given you brought up Starbucks. You certainly wouldn't survive here in NZ on bitcoin alone - even the Starbucks promo is limited to certain countries, and NZ isn't on the list. Without converting it to another currency, or finding a person to act as a proxy, I don't think I could purchase anything here.

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

FWIW I am trying to cash in my rather small bitcoin stash. Even that is turning out to be painful. The company that I got the from have just conjured up a minimum purchase limit which I am just below.
Assuming I do manage to sell them to someone else, my wallet will be left with about $20 in it which was not part of my consolidating transaction. This means that it attracts a fee on its own, and since the fee is larger than the amount left in the wallet I will just have to leave it there...

So, to sum up, it's as much use as a pair of Dingo's kidneys ??................

Must admit, it is keeping AMD afloat though

I cannot imagine trying to use any of it here in Portugal. They would simply laugh at you. It is hard enough paying by debit card here !. 

We use cash for everything apart from on-line purchases and bookings. Personally I prefer it that way.

[hendorog]

To be fair my point was actually that it was impractical to buy coffee with bitcoin. Reading back now I did make the mistake of wording that incorrectly, which you have picked up on - fair enough it was my mistake.

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I'm not out to score points, just to discuss what I think was said. I thought the original point made was that you can't actually use Bitcoin. I see various places where you can, and people are also actually using it in those places. Is it as practical as the local currency? Certainly not. Is it more practical than anything but the local currency? That it does seem to be.

If you had to survive a month and had nothing but a handful of Bitcoin, and couldn't convert it to conventional currency, it seems to me that you would be fine, even if it takes a bit more effort to get things done.

Yes that is where I have confused the issue. My point is that the entire monstrosity is impractical as a currency, and the difficulty around small transactions is just one of the issues. Consider the huge electricity consumption as well and I cannot see how it can continue.

Maybe there are options in the US to spend bitcoin - I assume that is where you are given you brought up Starbucks. You certainly wouldn't survive here in NZ on bitcoin alone - even the Starbucks promo is limited to certain countries, and NZ isn't on the list. Without converting it to another currency, or finding a person to act as a proxy, I don't think I could purchase anything here.

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

FWIW I am trying to cash in my rather small bitcoin stash. Even that is turning out to be painful. The company that I got the from have just conjured up a minimum purchase limit which I am just below.
Assuming I do manage to sell them to someone else, my wallet will be left with about $20 in it which was not part of my consolidating transaction. This means that it attracts a fee on its own, and since the fee is larger than the amount left in the wallet I will just have to leave it there...

So, to sum up, it's as much use as a pair of Dingo's kidneys ??................

Haha yep, a skinny, undernourished dingo with worms.

[Cerebus]

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I just mis-read that as "a practice currency", which I think just about nicely sums up what I think of it.

[hendorog]

Do you think bitcoin is a practical currency, or did you just want to call me out on that particular point?

I just mis-read that as "a practice currency", which I think just about nicely sums up what I think of it.

Yup, nailed it. That is exactly what I am treating it like.