Dab radio

[siliconmix]

i go to a lot of boot sales .i have noticed a lot of Dab radio's for sale , some of them quite good brand names.why is this  ? .what's your experience with dab ?

[grumpydoc]

In the UK? Rubbish - but then we chose the wrong standard, used too low bit rates and transmitted at too low a power - I live about 25 miles from a large city and can't get anything without a fairly high gain antenna which is then too directional to get all the transmitters.

[G7PSK]

What I think of DAB radio is not repeatable in a forum of polite people like this one. It is one of those things that was introduced for political reasons and no other.

[Monkeh]

I've never had a problem with mine. I can pick up a signal damn near anywhere, and my radio is both good sounding and lasts 12+ hours on battery.

[G7PSK]

I have a radio built in 1959 and the battery will last for months with it playing at least 6 hours a day.

[Zero999]

My brother and I bought a DAB radio for my mum's birthday. She thinks it's great and. I think it sounds good too. I know a good FM signal will give better sound quality than DAB but in my experience it's easier to get a good DAB signal so it generally sounds better.

[Monkeh]

I have a radio built in 1959 and the battery will last for months with it playing at least 6 hours a day.

And it won't sound as good, have a headphone amplifier, preset stations, line input..

[G7PSK]

I have a radio built in 1959 and the battery will last for months with it playing at least 6 hours a day.

And it won't sound as good, have a headphone amplifier, preset stations, line input..

I actually think that the tone is better than many modern radios and it does have an earphone out put as well as the car aerial input, and as I don't do a lot of station jumping and find part of the enjoyment of using a radio is turning the dial to tune, presets are not something I find that I want. It also has a bigger speaker than modern portables which gives a better sound.

[siliconmix]

having a large speaker and surrounded by a good quality wood makes a lot of difference.roberts realised this .

[Hydrawerk]

What is your opinion on DAB+ radio? What is the quality of sound like??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting

DAB+ is approximately twice as efficient as DAB due to the adoption of the AAC+ audio codec, and DAB+ can provide high quality audio with bit rates as low as 64 kbit/s. Reception quality is also more robust on DAB+ than on DAB due to the addition of Reed-Solomon error correction coding.

Is this true? Can the sound be CD-like even at  low bitrate of 72 kbits/s?
Does anybody use this Panasonic RF-D10? http://www.panasonic.com/au/consumer/audio/portable-am-fm-radio/rf-d10gn.html

[Hydrawerk]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/PANASONIC-RF-D10-HIGH-QUALITY-PORTABLE/dp/B00KVFMNKE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
http://www.amazon.de/Panasonic-RF-D10EG-W-DAB-Digitalradio-wei%C3%9F/dp/B00IAV90NO
Some customers from Germany say that the sound is not good and it is disturbed by some hum and noise. Like some design fail. I wonder how bad it really is.

[Fraser]

I bought a DAB radio purely out of curiosity and realised that in the UK it is compromised by the decision to use low bit rates on some channels. I believe BBC Radio 4 uses a better rate though as it was deemed appropriate to the music played.

The bad things that I have noticed with many DAB radios are:

1. They gobble batteries
2. They often do not have an external antenna port
3. The designs generally look like cheap 'trannies' from many years ago !
4. Sensitivity is often poor with the in-built antenna.
5. There are plenty of really cr*p DAB radios on the market that disappoint.

I own a very neat Sony DAB radio that actually works well but it eats batteries so they included a mains adapter for this compact PORTABLE radio    I also bought a PURE ONE DAB radio in as new condition from a charity shop for GBP5. It works OK but the design looks really cheap and nasty.

It is as though DAB radio manufacturers employed AMSTRAD designers for all their radio cases and had little confidence in the technology. A very poor implementation of Digital Radio in the UK.

I often listen to British Forces Radio so DAB offers me something not available via FM. My general radio listening is still FM though. The British Government have placed any plans to decommission FM analogue transmissions on hold and no surprises there.

Anyone remember Worldspace digital radio ? It has died and the company went into liquidation. Hillarious stories of how to deal with the defunct satellites have followed. NASA threatening all manner of action and demanding de-orbiting for which there is no money available.

I believe the USA has XM satellite radio that is satellite direct to car/home and I think it is still operating. I bought some of the active antennas for XM and they are a VERY sophisticated design with high quality pre-amplification. They are designed for use on boats, cars and trucks so have an excellent polar plot.

I just checked and they are now called SiriusXM Satellite radio.

http://www.siriusxm.com/

Digital radio can be done well but UK deployed DAB falls short of the mark.

[m100]

It's not hi-fi but then again FM in the UK is also knobbled by compression etc. Internet streams or a DVB-T / DVB-S feeds are just about the only way to get something approaching an acceptable bitrate.

For those that want a radio that is easy to setup and tune, is not susceptable to aerial location, automatically changes the time on a clock radio for daylight saving and is a bit of technology can be easily operated by a technophobe 80 year old then IMHO there is no equal.   (p.s. i'm not the 80 year old technophobe!)

[AndyC_772]

I was pleasantly surprised by the DAB radio that came with my car. Quality seems pretty decent, coverage is much better than expected, and most importantly of all, there's a far wider choice of stations available.

For that reason alone, it's made the difference between listening to the radio and not listening to it.

I wouldn't buy one for home use, though. Not when I have broadband, several Logitech Squeezeboxes, and hundreds of streaming stations to choose from.

[Hydrawerk]

Thanks. Any opinions on Panasonic RF-D10? I like it, because there are not many radios with 10 direct preset buttons. I like separate controls for volume and tuning. The volume knob is probably a rotary encoder. So no danger of noise from a damaged potentiometer as on my Olympia ATS-803A.
But I miss the audio input port on RF-D10.

[SeanB]

So the Worldspace receiver I have is now teardown material. No wonder it would not work at a cursory power up.........

[Fraser]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1worldspace

[Hydrawerk]

That's weird.

The final fate of the original Worldspace satellite radio service still remains a mystery. Despite the company's very public insolvency and the liquidation of all of its various commercial entities in 2008-2009, the company's Afristar and Asiastar satellites remain in geostationary orbit. Currently, the channels WRN 1 and WRN 2 can be received on Afristar with audio.

[Fraser]

The last I read on the satellites was that they are a big liability for someone.

The company that owned the satellites has long gone with huge debts. There is no money to de-orbit them. NASA are very concerned about abandoned satellites as they have to be regularly maintained in order to keep them in the correct position. There was much talk about possibly selling the satellite hardware for use by another company. That fell through.

NASA were left with a pair of orphaned and abandoned satellites that could cause all manner of trouble in the future if they became unresponsive to commands due to lack of position maintenance. No one wanted to pick up the huge bill for either maintaining or de-orbiting the pair. I believe that they were placed into sleep mode with ESA or NASA using their remaining fuel to maintain orbit until a decision could be made as to their fate.

This matter has raised questions as to whether companies owning and operating a satellite should place a de-orbiting fund in Bond in case they go bust. You can't just abandon a satellite if you no longer want it. It must be placed into a safe graveyard or brought down to burn up.

Aurora

[German_EE]

I wonder why deorbiting two satellites would cost a lot of money? All they need to do is send the commands to the engines so that the satellites slow down and then gravity does the rest.

[SeanB]

Where the bits will land requires careful monitoring during lowering burns, then final orbits require tracking from all around the world along with a lot of orbital calculations as to trajectory and where it will finally reenter and when. All needs guys with expensive equipment, PHD degrees and such, a lot of overtime for them all, and an insurer with a big set of brass ones to insure just in case it karks out during this and ploughs into somewhere expensive a few orbits later. If you do not really care you just command it to orient in plane of orbit and fire main engines till fuel exhaustion, then fire all manoeuvring rockets in order after rotating to scrub velocity and drop into an extremely elliptical orbit, then use momentum control to maintain solar panels at maximum drag at the perigee until it drops low enough that it does not rise up again.

Will land somewhere between 30N to 30S, and you take the chance that as most is 70% water, 10% desert and only 5% what is densely inhabited. Hey, it might not land on you, I know it will land on me.

[Precipice]

I wonder why deorbiting two satellites would cost a lot of money? All they need to do is send the commands to the engines so that the satellites slow down and then gravity does the rest.

I was wondering about the impulse you'd need to bring something back to earth from geosynchronous orbit. Turns out, it's too much, you just park them in a junk orbit that nobody cares about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit

[Fraser]

@Precipice,

Regret that is not really true. NASA and we care !

The Graveyard for satellites seemed a good idea at one time but it has since been established that the graveyard is a bit of a time bomb for other satellites.

the issue is that the satellites degrade over time and bits come off. That combined with being hit by micro meteorites that knock more bits off the shell leads to many lethal scrap particles that can fall back into orbits used by live satellites that are in turn damaged by colliding with the junk.

NASA are very concerned about the long term effects of all the 'parked' junk satellites that are in graveyards. I know of at least one satellite worth many millions that was taken out by particles that originated from the graveyard. Expensive and very inconvenient for the satellites users.

We now have a large target in the form of the space station that is also vulnerable to collisions with graveyard junk.

It is better to de-orbit a satellite if such is feasible and safe but there must be enough fuel left on board to achieve this manoeuvre as has already been stated.

Aurora

[Precipice]

Even for GEO?
LEO, sure, it's a timebomb, but isn't GEO so huge and sparse that if you can get to 100Km above, then you're as close to safe as you can be? (as in, safer than trying to deorbit your way back to the atmosphere, at (reading that Wikipedia page) over 100 times the delta-V.)

If your GEO junkyard stuff hits the ISS, things have gone very, very wrong!

[Fraser]

I am no expert on satellite disposal so cannot answer.

This page indicates that NASA are worried about Satellite Graveyards and it highlights the issues of old satellites not being adequately functional to achieve de-orbit or Graveyard parking.

http://www.tethers.com/OrbitalDebris.html

It's getting crowded up there !

Aurora

[Precipice]

Yeah - that's all about LEO, though, where the problem is very real and immediate.
GEO's out at 36,000km, compared to ISS's 400km or so... Granted, GEO's pretty much in a belt, rather than a sphere, but at least everything's going in the same direction

(Anyone with actual knowledge - please educate me! All I remember is first-order stuff, I've got no doubt it's massively more complex in reality)

[Hydrawerk]

OK, now please back to DAB+. 

[Wilksey]

Unfortunately in the UK a lot of car's don't come with DAB as standard, Ford seemed to be the only one offering the Sony head unit in their Titanium / Ghia models, but then it was only a few years back that MP3 capable stereos were being advertised as standard.

I have a Pure DAB radio which does work well, picks up all the stations and it is clear, and I have driven cars with DAB, and you do get some blackspots, I don't have DAB in my own car, and I can't say I miss it.

I don't think there is a massive issue for coverage with regards to portable radio's but I have had on-the-fence experiences with car ones due to the blackspots.

[coppice]

Anyone remember Worldspace digital radio ? It has died and the company went into liquidation. Hillarious stories of how to deal with the defunct satellites have followed. NASA threatening all manner of action and demanding de-orbiting for which there is no money available.

Worldspace was always good for hilarious stories. I think they launched satellites as a precursor to working out a business model. The radios I tried would only work with a clear line of sight view of the satellite - a pretty severe restriction for any urban users.

At one point they tried marketing to the huge number of Filipino migrant workers spread over much of Asia, so they could listen to radio stations from their homeland. Nice idea, expect they were marketing an expensive radio to a pool of people mostly working on low salaries in dense cities.

[n45048]

i go to a lot of boot sales .i have noticed a lot of Dab radio's for sale , some of them quite good brand names.why is this  ? .what's your experience with dab ?

DAB is an old standard which uses the MPEG2 codec. DAB+ and DRM are replacing DAB in a lot of countries which uses the far more efficient HE-AAC codec. You'll probably find people are offloading their old legacy DAB receivers (which don't support DAB+ or DRM) while they still can.

For example, Australia broadcasts their digital stations using the DAB+ standard. The Swiss are migrating from DAB to DAB+ (with DAB switch-off to occur in 2015) and the Germans have been rolling out DAB+ since 2011. Curiously, the UK have decided to stick with DAB at 128Kbps (which doesn't come close to CD quality) rather than adopting the newer standards. Although this year, some broadcasters in the UK have started trialling DAB+, so I dare say change might eventually be in the air (pun intended).

[Hydrawerk]

I live in Europe, there is some DAB+ present. But only few people actually own a DAB+ receiver. And they are not much displayed in shops.

[n45048]

I live in Europe, there is some DAB+ present. But only few people actually own a DAB+ receiver. And they are not much displayed in shops.

A lot of the newer DAB radios will support DAB+ (you just need to check the specs). The earlier ones didn't.

[n45048]

The UK has managed to kill DAB pretty effectively for cars. First you have reception issues, which will be blamed on the car manufacturer so they would rather just stick with analogue that everyone understands the limitations of. Then you have DAB+, which looks like it might fix the reception problems but will make all the current DAB receivers obsolete so probably won't be widely adopted any time soon.

It's a catch-22 isn't it? The AAC codec handles packet loss and BER far better than the MPEG standard does, not to mention much better quality at lower bit rates. But no one is willing to make the first leap which it why the UK is being left behind.

I think it'll happen, it just might take a while.

Sounds like our National Broadband Network really ;-)

[AndyC_772]

I can't see it happening, the incentive just isn't there.

For home use, we now have internet streaming radio, which offers a wide selection of stations and no inherent limit on bit rate. A better DAB doesn't offer anything new.

For car use, streaming internet may well happen anyway; it'll depend on the roll-out of 4G and whether or not the networks can manage an infrastructure that actually delivers the rates of which the technology is capable, rather than just being able to tick a box that says "yes, this area is covered by a 4G signal" despite the backhaul relying on Morse operators and carrier pigeons.

The BBC already has perfectly good coverage on FM, so the real (ie. commercial) benefit of a better DAB would be the ability to stream more adverts into cars. Since the ads are the very reason I rarely listen to commercial radio anyway, I can't see the market being there to support a new technology roll-out.

[n45048]

I can't see it happening, the incentive just isn't there.

For home use, we now have internet streaming radio, which offers a wide selection of stations and no inherent limit on bit rate. A better DAB doesn't offer anything new.

For car use, streaming internet may well happen anyway; it'll depend on the roll-out of 4G and whether or not the networks can manage an infrastructure that actually delivers the rates of which the technology is capable, rather than just being able to tick a box that says "yes, this area is covered by a 4G signal" despite the backhaul relying on Morse operators and carrier pigeons.

The BBC already has perfectly good coverage on FM, so the real (ie. commercial) benefit of a better DAB would be the ability to stream more adverts into cars. Since the ads are the very reason I rarely listen to commercial radio anyway, I can't see the market being there to support a new technology roll-out.

That's a whole different kettle of fish, but you make some good points.

I have it on good authority (i.e.: a representative of Telstra), that our largest Telco don't really want users flooding its wireless networks. Which is why their data packs and wireless internet plans are ridiculously priced. If it's cheap, the demand will increase, which means the cell towers are inundated and their links flooded. It's a fine balance between profit and having to fork out for upgrades.

[Hydrawerk]

5. There are plenty of really cr*p DAB radios on the market that disappoint.

There are many radios, that are not cheap, but they have a bloody small speaker for the price. The reception is excelent but speaker is crap. OK, you can use headphones.
There are very few DAB radios that have a big speaker and a nice sound like this Panasonic RF-3500 introduced in 1995. LOL, I know that this RF-3500 has no DAB+, but the sound quality is very good for the price. My grandma has this since 2010 or so.

[n45048]

It's because we do things half heartedly.

Sadly that's true. Which is why I've switched off from TV and Radio (actually the only channels I listen to are on AM).

We don't even have proper HD channels in Australia and even on the 1080i channels, by the time it gets to us, the amount of compression makes the image look rubbish.

[VK3DRB]

DAB+ is brilliant. After hearing DAB+ on a good radio, you will never go back to crappy AM or FM. I am not sure whether new cars in Australia have DAB+ yet. If they haven't they are way behind the times. We own several DAB+/internet radios. I have DAB+ in the car which I installed as an add-on 4 years ago.

If you have DAB+ in your area, don't waste your money on a radio with a $2 speaker. It defeats the purpose to some extent. Pay a little more and get a good radio and you won't regret it.

I listen to the BBC World Service everyday via SBS4 here in Melbourne. 24/7 BBC for free, in the car or in the home, paid for by the British taxpayer . Only problem is when the nauseating Eurovision Song Contest appears each year, SBS switches over to Eurocrap for one month. When this happens, I switch over to the internet BBC World Service - not quite as good sound as the DAB+ but still works on the DAB+/internet radios at home but not in the car.

[Monkeh]

5. There are plenty of really cr*p DAB radios on the market that disappoint.

There are many radios, that are not cheap, but they have a bloody small speaker for the price. The reception is excelent but speaker is crap.

[Hydrawerk]

Pure Evoke 2S looks nice, but it is quite expensive. For the price you can buy a hifi micro system. And it has no USB port for MP3 playback.

[staxquad]

have top Grundig and Sony SW radios, no DAB, but now mostly listen to:

TuneIn on my tablet (apk, but also have the program on my W7 laptop)

radio stations from everywhere,

mostly listen to  1.FM - Otto's Baroque Musick (Switzerland) [64k AAC] and Positively Baroque (US) [128k MP3], and occasionally browse for other stations

use wireless Sennheiser headphones with the tablet and roam around the house, quality of those two stations are good on them

can be an option for some

[steve30]

I'm not a fan of DAB for the bitrate issue, but it can increase the choice of stations. For example, back in 2003, my grandmother bought a neat little Pure Evoke DAB radio so she could listen to BBC 7. My Mum has a more modern Pure DAB radio, made out of pink plastic which looks and feels really silly, and the rotary encoder on the side really isn't very good.

I have a dedicated audio amp and dedicated speakers in my lab, so if I had a DAB radio, it would have to hook up to those (rather than be a standalone unit), but as I mostly listen to some FM-Only stations, I don't really need one  .

[coppice]

I have it on good authority (i.e.: a representative of Telstra), that our largest Telco don't really want users flooding its wireless networks. Which is why their data packs and wireless internet plans are ridiculously priced. If it's cheap, the demand will increase, which means the cell towers are inundated and their links flooded. It's a fine balance between profit and having to fork out for upgrades.

Why is it expensive? Because its not mass market. Why is it not mass market? Because its expensive.

Bandwidth is never really an issue in cellular systems. You just shrink the cell sizes as needed. Some people laugh at that, but the only places you need to shrink the cells are places with lots of people, and therefore lots of potential revenue. If you really want to make good cheap mobile bandwidth available there are reference markets which show it can be done. If they don't have a monopoly, or something close to one, its eventually hard for the telcos to resist actually providing service. If they do have tight control, then keeping high prices and low bandwidth reduces their up front investment, and that will be their preferred approach.

[VK3DRB]

have top Grundig and Sony SW radios, no DAB, but now mostly listen to:

TuneIn on my tablet (apk, but also have the program on my W7 laptop)

radio stations from everywhere,

mostly listen to  1.FM - Otto's Baroque Musick (Switzerland) [64k AAC] and Positively Baroque (US) [128k MP3], and occasionally browse for other stations

use wireless Sennheiser headphones with the tablet and roam around the house, quality of those two stations are good on them

can be an option for some

I listen to Tune-in when I am writing embedded code for hours on end, I find http://tunein.com/radio/TSF-Jazz-899-s16492/ perfect for concentrating... no ads, no announcements. And http://tunein.com/radio/Hotmixradio-Golds-s214967/ isn't bad either.

TSF Jazz does have a reasonable variety of smooth jazz, but most Tune-in stations are a bit repetitive for some reason.

[n45048]

Why is it expensive? Because its not mass market. Why is it not mass market? Because its expensive.

I'd argue that. You'll probably find the majority of mobile subscribers use mobile data, it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with telephony services these days. On top of that you have users in areas with shithouse ADSL lines (and there are a lot of those) who rely on mobile broadband as their primary fixed internet service but every month max out their download limit (on Telstra/Bigpond, it's 15GB/month on their highest plan before shaping to 64Kbps which is absolutely useless even for the most basic website).

I'm by no means a heavy user of mobile internet but I still churn through at least 3GB/month without even trying. (And no, I don't use Facebook, Instagram, et al. Simply a bit of Google Maps/MapQuest, a few VOIP calls and some internet radio when I'm travelling.)

[Hydrawerk]

How are DAB radios made? Is there a Si4688 IC or similar made by Silicon Labs? http://www.silabs.com/products/audio/digital-radio/pages/si468x.aspx

[Hydrawerk]

Please can someone assess the sound reproduction quality of these DAB / FM radios? They are all rated 1 Watt except for the Pure One Mini, that is 1.6 Watt.
Yes, I know that the Panasonic is only FM.

[Fraser]

All equipped with approx 3" drivers so expect appropriately mediocre acoustic performance. This combined with the driver sitting inside a small plastic case guarantees the audio will lack base. I have the PURE model.... nothing special at all.

Acoustic quality relies upon the frequency response of the drivers. A 3" single full range driver is fine for a kitchen radio or for use mobile but you really cannot expect anything approaching Hi-Fi from any unit using such. That is just physics.

And that is before we go anywhere near the performance of the digital receiver and audio amplifier. If you want 'Hi-Fi' you need a larger appliance with decent design and drivers 

Aurora

[steve30]

I've used the Pure One Mini. Sound quality is fine for a small unit. I don't like the mechanical encoder knob/button on the side though.

[Hydrawerk]

Any opinion on Sangean DPR-45? It is one of the few Sangean models with a large speaker and the only with DAB+, FM and MW. It has 15 presets per radio band. I wonder if the output power is really only 1 Watt, when there is a five inch (12 cm) speaker.  The one-line LCD is quite basic. The DPR-45 is rather expensive, though.
Does anyone own the DPR-45 here?
http://www.sangean.eu/products/dab-radios/dpr-45-1.html

https://youtu.be/t3cCov25ips
https://youtu.be/ptDw1stwwro

[Hydrawerk]

I know that DPR-45 is similar to Sangean PR-D3L and CCrane CCradio. They were introduced back in 1999. There might be an improved version nowadays but the external design stays the same.
PR-D3L is rated 2 Watts of output
http://www.sangean.eu/products/portable-radios/pr-d3l.html
Anc CCrane is rated 1.8 Watts of output.
http://www.ccrane.com/AM-FM-Radios/CCRadio-2E-Enhanced-AMFMWX2-Meter-Ham-Band-Radio-Black-Mica
The speaker looks huge on photos.
These radios are known for their low reliability. The LCD breaks down in a few years and more problems have been reported. Some people say that the problems do not appear on units produced after year 2004.
Please see this.
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5825
http://www.amazon.com/Crane-CCRadio-Multiband-Portable-Weather/product-reviews/B00007079A/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1
http://herculodge.typepad.com/herculodge/2011/09/back-in-april-of-2009-a-ccrane-rep-explained-controversy-of-the-cc-radio-plus-to-herculodge.html
http://www.notgoodenough.org/viewtopic.php?t=36712

Maybe these problems will never appear on DPR-45 because it is a mature product today??

[Hydrawerk]

Last photo and an advertisement made by CCrane staff.
But wait, in that video you only see that radio in standby mode. No operation was shown. 

[Fraser]

I think you need to explain what you are hoping for out of a portable radio. High audio quality is not always a concern of manufacturers of such equipment. The 5" speaker is better than a 3" one sure, but whether the speaker itself is any good depends upon how much the OEM wanted to spend on it and the amplifier driving it.

Please let us know your needs and we may be able to comment better on what is and is not a good buy.

P.S. I hope you already know that DAB radios love to consume batteries so mains power is usually the only economic mode unless rechargeable batteries are used.

Cheers

Aurora

[Hydrawerk]

I hardly ever use batteries. I have an ATS-803A in my kitchen. It will not last forever.

My next radio should have at least the same sound quality.
ATS-803A has rated output 1,2W but the speaker is marked with 2W.
DAB+ III band is present in many parts of my country, it will come to my town in two years.

[Fraser]

My recommendation: Sony XDR-S60DBP

http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/radios/xdr-s60dbp#product_details_legacy_default

Well made and many happy owners.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-XDRS60-Compact-Retro-Digital/dp/B00DQQVEB4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429476287&sr=8-1&keywords=xdr-s60

Manual is attached.

Looks good as well.

Do not get hung up of stated audio power output. Why ? Well audio power output is often over stated by manufacturers and can end up meaning little about how the unit actually sounds. A classic would be the stated PMPO (Peak Music Power Output) .... a totally meaningless specification if units and reference THD is not stated. An insensitive speaker driver needs plenty of drive to move the cone. Better quality sensitive speaker drivers need less Audio power to move the cone. This is why many home theatre enthusiasts are keen to know the sensitivity of a the speakers they use. A Integrated TV with say only 3W on a channel will drive a quality Celestion 3 speaker far better than some cheap insensitive piece of junk, The result .... the Celestion wins out in a listening trial as it is better quality and can produce more sound with less PA drive and hopefully lower THD.
As I said, please do not get hung up on power output. 1 Watt RMS is plenty in a small enclosure.There is little point in more power if it just rattles the plastic case and produces horrific THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) content !   

If you want more than around 1W RMS you should consider a larger solution such as a Quality brand Micro Hi-Fi, with half decent heavy bookshelf speakers. That will always outperform a portable radio as they are designed for different purposes.

You get what you pay for these days.

Aurora

[amyk]

Looks like DAB radios are soon going to be the only thing usable in Norway:
http://radio.no/2015/04/norway-to-switch-off-fm-in-2017/

[AndyC_772]

Interesting stats in that article:

- 56 % of radio listeners use digital radio daily
- 44 % of listeners only use FM radio daily
- 20 % of private cars are equipped with DAB radio
- 55 % of all Norwegian households have at least one DAB radio.
-  7.9 million radio sets will be affected by FM-extinction. FM radios can be upgraded or recycled.

So, nearly half of radio listeners now have to fork out for at least one DAB radio, or get cut off. The vast majority of car radios will fall silent when the FM signal is switched off. And some idiot thinks it's possible to upgrade an FM radio to receive DAB.

I wonder how much money changed hands to make this happen?

[Fraser]

I understand that these are the reasons that the UK government backed off on a Digital Radio  switch-over. Thankfully someone with a brain cell realised that many owners of cars would be seriously affected by such as many OEM car radios are custom these days. DAB converters do exist though. They receive the DAB and transmit on an FM channel to an analogue radio. Messy and not what I would want. No improvement in audio quality to be had using such a method either.

For me DAB was a passing interest. I do listen to BFBS on mine but I mainly stick to good old FM radio where a marginal signal can be coped with, unlike with DAB.

In the UK it is also worth remembering that one of the incentives for TV going digital was eventual release of RF spectrum. The 88-108MHz FM band in tiny when compared to the 470-890MHz TV band so there is less to be gained in shutting it down and selling the spectrum.

We still have MW and LW transmitters active and I sincerely hope the the VHF transmitters stay with us for many years yet. You cannot beat the convenience of throwing up an whip antenna and getting a usable signal in most parts of the UK, unlike DAB.

Aurora

[madires]

We got the same discussions and lobbying too. The latest idea is to switch off FM end of 2024 (already postponed one or two times Fortunately a lot of radio stations don't see any benefit in DAB+ and want to stay with classic FM.

[AndyC_772]

DAB here in the UK was badly botched from day one. In a desperate attempt to be an early adopter, our network ended up using an early standard with an inefficient codec, so audio quality for a given bit rate is awful. Coverage was patchy too, so much so that on the two occasions I actually bought a DAB radio, I took them straight back to the store days later on the grounds that I couldn't receive an adequate signal anywhere I wanted to use it.

That was all quite a few years ago now, but I suspect that in the eyes of the public - mine included - the damage had been done.

Last year I bought a car which has a DAB radio, and have been pleasantly surprised by the coverage and choice of stations. I soon settled on a favourite station (Team Rock radio) which also broadcasts an internet stream.

Last week, they announced that they're abandoning DAB and moving to an internet-only platform.

[cdev]

The tiny RTL2832 USB dongles - which cost in some cases as little as $6 (which is an incredible deal considering what they can do) can receive DAB. As i understand it the easiest way if you don't want to use the software they come with is to use the osmocom drivers (  https://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr and  a suite of programs you can find the link to there- also - called "SDR-J" )

There is a Windows binary which is downloadable. The antenna the little USB devices usually come with is very low quality but if you replace that antenna they perform quite well.

Just search on ebay for "RTL2832+R820T" - There are around 80,000 videos now on YouTube about them, up from 6000 just a few months ago.  So they are quite popular.

[smjcuk]

I'm still pissed at the impending death of AM broadcast in the UK, hanging on two big irreplaceable RF valves and some luck.

Now this is the first I hear FM is heading down the shitter!

Hopefully broadcast short wave will hang on for a bit (even if it is a bit quiet). Amateur radio must not be left to die as well.

We're replacing our entire broadcast comms systems with stuff that we can't easily build a receiver for.

[smjcuk]

I'm still pissed at the impending death of AM broadcast in the UK, hanging on two big irreplaceable RF valves and some luck.

That's a myth. The type of valves in use can actually be repaired fairly easily, even if for some reason they couldn't be replaced. Since a lot of people rely on Radio 4 LW (e.g. for the shipping forecast, or because they are too far out for FM, or because it carries religious programming that FM does not) I doubt they would just shut it down for the sake of some off-the-shelf transmission gear.

The whole thing can be traced back to a nonsense piece in the Guardian. I wouldn't worry about it.

Actually I read it in the government communications directive stuff a couple of years back whilst researching emergency radio frequencies and service provisioning. Turns out that *is* the case and they don't intend to replace it as it requires extensive expenditure to replace with a newer platform or repair it.

I suspect that it's just it makes a loss at the end of the day so they've found a convenient excuse to get rid of it.

[smjcuk]

Currently on my phone in Tesco car park (fun!) but will dig it out when I get home later.

The R4 shipping forecast isn't that big a deal these days I understand. It's not part of the maritime emergency comms stuff apparently. You need various other RF/satellite systems for that.

[Mechanical Menace]

The R4 shipping forecast isn't that big a deal these days I understand.

Through what I've seen even personal leisure boats use Navtex rather than the shipping broadcasts, and that seems to be getting replaced with satellite data for all but emergencies.

But I'm no sailor and radio isn't really one of my interests. TBH I'm surprised it lasted into the 90's (and was at the time), let alone to this day. Whther it's analogue or not it's a pointless technology that should have died last century, same with broadcast television.

[cdev]

The lack of available cheap and reliable upgrade options is the problem. With TV you could buy (or get for free) a cheap box. Soon all TVs had digital tuners anyway.

With radios there is no possibility of simply adding a cheap box to most set ups. You have to buy a new, expensive radio. Cars are the worst, because it's often impossible to upgrade them cleanly, and even current models don't have a DAB radio as standard.

You can add a very cheap RTL2832 USB DVB-T stick  (around $10 USD) to any fairly recent computer to receive both DAB and FM (The DAB app I know about is at http://www.sdr-j.tk/index.html. There are other DAB apps for the $10 RTL2832 sticks, but I don't know if they are still being maintained.)

The RTL2832 dongles will receive anything that will fit in any 2.5 MHz wide slice from 24-1766MHz . Search on RTL2832 on YouTube to see how much you can do. >80,000 hits.

For example, you can also receive AM and HF shortwave/amateur/SSB/CW/digital modes with some very simple add ons or a very simple hardware mod.

[Hydrawerk]

My recommendation: Sony XDR-S60DBP

http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/radios/xdr-s60dbp#product_details_legacy_default

Well made and many happy owners.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-XDRS60-Compact-Retro-Digital/dp/B00DQQVEB4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429476287&sr=8-1&keywords=xdr-s60

Manual is attached.

Looks good as well.

Yes, this Sony XDRS60 is quite popular among Amazon customers. Many people have bought it. There are many videos on youtube. Have you tried this radio in person?
It has an external audio input.

Panasonic RF-D10 also has good rating, but people do not buy it much.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/PANASONIC-RF-D10-HIGH-QUALITY-PORTABLE/dp/B00KVFMNKE It has no audio input.
There is only one low-quality video available. That is strange!

[Fraser]

We had the Sony DAB radio at work and it sounded just fine in the office.

As I say, that is the one I would buy but you may find something as good. Look for a nice solid case construction and a quality look to the design. Cost cutting on a case is a bad omen for the quality of electronics within.

Aurora

[Hydrawerk]

I went to another city to visit a shop that offers some DAB radios. Unfortunately, that shop was located in a shopping mall with a metal roof, so I could receive only FM. I tried Sangean DDR-31+. It is nice overall and the LCD is great but...
The output volume is too low IMHO. Even at full volume setting the sound is not so much loud when compared to many basic FM radios. I don't believe that Sangean DDR-31+ has 5 Watts output.
http://www.sangean.eu/products/dab-radios/ddr-31.html
http://www.amazon.de/Sangean-DDR-31-Tischradio-Tuner-schwarz/dp/B00392HEXM
I am not sure if DDR-31+ is worth 149 Euro.


Even a 31 Euro Panasonic RF-3500E9-K is more loud.
https://www.alzashop.com/panasonic-rf-3500e9-k-black-d502310.htm 

[Hydrawerk]

User manual.

[Hydrawerk]

It seems that many people buy the Panasonic RF-D10 in Germany.
http://www.amazon.de/Panasonic-RF-D10EG-K-DAB-Digitalradio-schwarz/dp/B00IAV917O/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Their reviews are rather positive.
Yes, I have read about these problems with another Panasonic DAB radio from 2005. http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1124456121

This problem with the RFD1 is caused by failure of the internal 5V power supply. This can be repaired. The total repair cost is £37.60 including VAT.
(...)
I have a Panasonic RF-D1 – the DAB from Sansburys advertisement, it s just out of warranty and there is a problem with it .When switched on the error message F76 PDET comes up on the display and that is it – it does not do nothing else . Is this something that one could possibly repair or is it the time for me to get a new one Regards

[Hydrawerk]

Does anybody have this PDF with a review of DAB+ radios?
https://www.test.de/Digitalradios-Deutliche-Unterschiede-bei-Klang-Empfang-und-Ausstattung-4868028-0/

[Delta]

It's a catch-22 isn't it? The AAC codec handles packet loss and BER far better than the MPEG standard does, not to mention much better quality at lower bit rates. But no one is willing to make the first leap which it why the UK is being left behind.

It's because we do things half heartedly. If we had made a major push for DAB and actually turned off analogue in 2015 that would free up plenty of spectrum and allow more powerful DAB broadcasts, fixing the range issue. DAB+ could probably be sold if DAB had taken off.

'fraid not old chap. FM broadcasting uses VHF band II (87.5-108 MHz), where as DAB uses band III, (around 180 - 220 MHz I think) so DAB could not utilise the spectrum currently used by FM.

FM stereo multiplexing was invented in the 50s, now many of the stations I can get on my DAB radio are in mono.  That's progress....

[sanchaz12]

I've got to test both the Sony XDR-S60BDP and the Panasonic RF-D10. Both of them are nice DAB+ radio's with their own pro's and cons.

First off, sound quality. The Sony didn't really convince me in terms of sound clarity, as it clearly lacked both treble and bass production. There are no settings to adjust that. The Sony sounds to me like a pocket FM-radio, but in a much bigger housing. Given the size of the unit not really the sound you would expect. The Panasonic on the other hand sounds clearer and has more power/louder output, even on batteries. There are options to change the sound by selecting a pre-defined EQ setting. 'Heavy' has the most treble and bass, and this way it sounds very rich in comparison to the Sony. A win for the Panasonic here.

In terms of design I give credit to Sony for the nice design elements they used. It combines a retro look with a modern and fresh appearance. The Panasonic does not look bad by any means, but I like the Sony better on this one.
The build quality from both is what you would expect of electronics fabricated in the last couple of years, reasonable but noticeable cost saving elements. The Sony has the best finish in my opinion, and does not look cheap at all. The only downside is the light glossy plastic housing, which seems a bit scratch sensitive. I was able to put some marks on it that wouldn't go away with my fingernails. The Panasonic uses a slightly more rugged type of plastic, and does not scratch so easily as the Sony. Or at least it is not that visible.

While using these the Sony has a more intuitive user interface, mainly because the display has four rows of text. This makes browsing channels and the menu itself very easy. The Panasonic on the other hand has just two lines, and only the lower line is used to browse channels or navigating through the menu. This way it takes a little longer to find what you are looking for, but you will get used to it.

The reception quality is equal on both units, I've never had any drops or hiccups whilst listening to DAB+ stations, but this varies from location to location of course. When pushing the reception strength to its limits (antenna not pulled out) the Panasonic manages to get a tiny bit more reception than the Sony, but this difference is too small and inconsistent to say the Panasonic has better reception.

There are some design elements that can raise questions, like the power (AC) input on the Panasonic is at the left side on the upper half of the unit, so it is very visible and it takes away the neat look. On the other hand this is made up by the fact that the Panasonic has a carrying handle that can be rotated up and down.

In the end you normally buy a radio to listen to, so the sound quality has made me choose the Panasonic over the Sony. I am very pleased with it and can highly recommend it.

[Hydrawerk]

Thank you for the review. 

There are some design elements that can raise questions, like the power (AC) input on the Panasonic is at the left side on the upper half of the unit, so it is very visible and it takes away the neat look.

So you can let the unit lie on back. Good for me.

[sanchaz12]

Thank you for the review. 

Thanks! Hope it helps to decide what to buy

[sanchaz12]

Another thing to note on the Panasonic, it seems to last very long on batteries. When not used there seems almost no power consumption at all, the display doesn't show anything in stand by. I have used the same set of batteries for about 4 weeks now using it for maybe half an hour to one hour a day and they have still some charge left. It must have some sort of deep sleep mode, as it takes a little longer for the unit to power up when not connected to the mains. Can't say anything about the Sony, as I have not used it on batteries.

[Hydrawerk]

Here is the review of some DAB+ radios from July 2015. The text is in German language. 

[sanchaz12]

Here is the review of some DAB+ radios from July 2015. The text is in German language. 

Thanks for that.  Only I can't seem to get why the Sony has a better score on sound quality. Maybe I've just got a bad unit, or they didn't test the sound of the Panasonic with the equalizer settings. Without EQ on the Panasonic it sounds almost the same as the Sony.

[Hydrawerk]

Well, the review is not perfect. Note that there is no output power in Watts mentioned. There is even no evaluation of LCDs.

[Hydrawerk]

Finally someone from Netherlands (probably) made a video of Panasonic RF-D10.

And even some Sangean units.

[sanchaz12]

Well, the review is not perfect. Note that there is no output power in Watts mentioned. There is even no evaluation of LCDs.

IMHO the Sony XDR-S60BDP has a slightly better screen (better contrast) than the Panasonic RF-D10. Can't say much about the viewing angles of the Sony as I haven't looked at that, but the Panasonic does not have wide viewing angles. At about 45 degrees and above horizontally the text is barely readable. Vertically the text remains readable, but it degrades in contrast. Both using the backlight in a darker room.

[Hydrawerk]

Here is a German review of that Panasonic RF-D10 in the addendum.
Some people say that there is a mild 50Hz hum present in the sound output.
http://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-reviews/R38RXR0LV9XJQP/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00IAV90NO
Did you notice it? Well, most people say that the sound is quite OK.

[Hydrawerk]

Any opinion on View Quest DAB radio brand? Their website seems to be online since late 2014 or so.
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.myvq.co.uk/
https://www.myvq.co.uk/
Their products are sold in Tesco Stores.

[Hydrawerk]

More photos

[Hydrawerk]

[Hydrawerk]

I found a service manual and schematics for Panasonic RF-D10EG. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1141653/Panasonic-Rf-D10eb.html
Also here:

https://ulozto.net/!d9snD3h58Ftn/panasonic-rf-d10-eb-service-manual-pdf
http://www.filedropper.com/panasonic-rf-d10ebservicemanual
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=71144591504846412472

[Sigmoid]

I wonder what's going on with DRM... I mean it's almost impossible to google for, due to the extremely poor choice of an acronym. There are no receivers, only outdated-looking computer expansion cards with Windows software with screenshots from XP... Is anyone broadcasts seriously, or is it just some curiosity?

[Tac Eht Xilef]

I wonder what's going on with DRM ... Is anyone broadcasts seriously, or is it just some curiosity?

Never really got off the ground, although there's a few broadcasters transmitting it and a few mad enthusiasts running around shouting "it's still good, it's still good!". Pretty much every country in the world has trialled it; pretty much all of them have given up. The DRM Consortium now seems to pitch DRM by poking it with a stick and saying "look, it's alive! And here's a bunch of receivers that haven't been manufactured in years to receive it!"

And then there's India who, after seeing a few presentations from the DRM Consortium, got all enthusiastic and upgraded all their AM transmitters with the aim of kickstarting local receiver manufacturing & cutting over to DRM in 2017. Let's just say that's looking increasingly unlikely. Similarly Pakistan, not to be outdone, recently announced they're planning a conversion to DRM+ (the VHF version of DRM30). That's unlikely to happen either.

No portable receivers (the last one, the Indian Avion AV-DR-1401, despite still being featured on their website hasn't been available for months). 2 allegedly in the works, but I suspect at least one of them (the Gospell GR-216) will never progress beyond a few demo units. The other - the PantronX Titus II, made in conjunction with the Christian shortwave broadcaster TWR - at least looks interesting, since it's a portable radio based around a tablet running SDR software with a DC-to-2GHz tuner...

But currently if you want to buy a DRM receiver you have to go to India and buy a Hyundai i30 compact car, or a Hyundai Tucson or Mahindra TUV300 SUV...

[Hydrawerk]

Panasonic RF-D10 teardown.   https://memristor.rajce.idnes.cz/Panasonic_RF-D10_DAB_radio/ 

[Hydrawerk]

At low volume there is a little distortion in the sound. (Not noticeable in videos.) Especially when you listen to classical orchestral music.
The sound quality is acceptable. But you might find many better sounding radios, especially if you pay 3× the price of Panasonic RF-D10.

[Lord of nothing]

Here in Austria s short while ago the first commercial DAB+ Broadcast start (only) in Vienna! 

Why buy an Hardware for Radio? Use Software like "welle.io". 

[schmitt trigger]

About the de-orbiting of defunct satellites:
A simple solution: just ask the Chinese military to send one of their killer rockets and blow the darn things into smithereens. 

Now seriously. We have polluted our landmasses, our oceans, our atmosphere....and now we are polluting our near space?

And we want to colonize Mars afterwards. Seriously?

[Lord of nothing]

We have polluted our landmasses, our oceans, our atmosphere....

Sure if the US Military would not try to Kill everyone outside of the US thousand of Million Tonns of Co2, Dust,... would be safed. 

[Hydrawerk]

Any opinions on Panasonic RF-D100BT? https://www.homecinemamagazine.nl/2018/02/panasonic-rf-d100bt-radio/
https://www.amazon.de/Panasonic-RF-D100BTEGT-Digitalradio-Retro-Design-Batteriebetrieb/product-reviews/B07DF5YZLR/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_paging_btm_2?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=2
Unfortunately it has no USB player. :-(
https://www.panasonic.com/de/consumer/home-entertainment/hifi-audio/cd-radio-recorder/rf-d100bt.html

[cdev]

This is nuts!

If it goes like digital TV has in the US, and you can bet it will, areas that at one time were inside the core broadcasting areas - areas that had solid top quality signals on every channel, suddenly because fringe areas where reception is likely to become zilch on many channels and marginal with others.

The government totally messed up on that one.

Looks like DAB radios are soon going to be the only thing usable in Norway:
http://radio.no/2015/04/norway-to-switch-off-fm-in-2017/

[Hydrawerk]

Any opinions on Sony XDR-S61? It is quite new.
https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/dab-radios/xdr-s61d
There is no proper review on youtube.

[Cyberdragon]

Hard to review a reciever when all the transmitters are shit. You can have the fanciest reciever you want but that's not going to clean up the 32K or less baud signals out there. In mono no less.

[Hydrawerk]

I bought the SONY XDR-S61D. It is OK.


Some outside photos here:
https://memristor.rajce.idnes.cz/Sony_XDR-S61DB_DAB_radio

[Towger]

Meanwhile in Ireland, the DAB+ system is being shut down as an expensive lost cause.

[Lord of nothing]

How does Public Radio get funded?
In Austria every Household must fund then if the have an Radio Receiver at Home.   

[Hydrawerk]

Lets write a short review of Sony XDR-S61D.

One of the best small radios of the cathegory. A great choice if you want an unlimited list of
FM and DAB+ stations and quickly choose from them.

PROS:
+The cabinet looks great
+Automatic scan and save FM and DAB+ stations to a list. The list contains names of the stations.
+A great big easy readable monochromatic LCD
+Bass reflex system
+Simple operation, but it is good to be able to read English
+The speaker has only 7cm in diameter but somehow they managed to get a good sound from that.
+Better sound than Panasonic RF-D10
+There are about 30 steps of volume, that is good.

CONS:
-time can be set by DAB+ and not by FM RDS
-You cannot set the language, there is always English
-No date can be displayed, only HOURS:MINUTES
-No sound equalizer, but I do not miss it much
-No firmware version can be displayed
-No bluetooth, no MP3
-The used ac adaptor Sony AC-P5007F is hard to buy, but fortunately a stndard Sony Discman PC-013 cable is used.
-Sometimes the autotune feature saves an incorrect name of FM station.