Dale Dougherty, CEO of Make magazine, accuses Naomi Wu to be fake

[FrankBuss]

If you didn't hear about it, you can see the original tweet on the background image of the twitter page of Naomi Wu, because looks like she was really upset about it:



Meanwhile he apologized and deleted his original tweet, but the damage was done. An insightful posting about all this and some background information about Chinese culture from Bunnie:

https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046

I don't get it why Mr. Dougherty thought that she is not genuine. It's not rocket science what Naomi does, and don't get me wrong, of course I do think that women can do rocket science as good as men. Maybe a reason was that sometimes she doesn't sound genuine on her Youtube videos, because English is not her native language. But her videos clearly show that she can use Tinkercad and follow Adafruit tutorials, which she admits is all she does. But I think she does it very good and creatively.

[KE5FX]

From Bunnie's blog:

I’ve discussed injection molding with men in pink tutus and learned about plasmonics from half-naked women.

That's up there with Rutger Hauer's famous ad-libbed soliloquy in Blade Runner. 

[EEVblog]

I don't get it why Mr. Dougherty thought that she is not genuine.

Yeah, just dumb. You'd think the editor of a magazine, a freaking journalist by profession would at least have a clue. Let alone one that has been into making for so long and is effectively the spearhead of the maker community.
Any viewing of her stuff shows that she's the real deal when it comes to making 
It's so stupid that I can't help but think there is something sinister behind it...

[EEVblog]

Official response from Dale

https://makezine.com/2017/11/06/open-note-to-naomi-wu/

[Mr. Scram]

At first I thought the comment may have been aimed at how she presents herself, which has little to do with the content of what she does. However, reading the comments it seems more about whether she actually does what she purports to do.

[EEVblog]

And the story spreads:
http://www.newsweek.com/naomi-wu-sexy-cyborg-misogyny-silicon-valley-704372

[sleemanj]

I am sure Naomi has help in doing her projects... because everybody has help doing their projects somewhere along the line if it's in person or online or whatever.  It's called learning stuff.

I think that some people see the way she presents, and the projects she's doing, and this forms some irreconcilable conflict in their head, they figure it must be one or the other, bimbo or builder.  That is their failing, not hers.

STEM is full of people (especially on youtube) who radically break the societal norms. 

[Dubbie]

Glad to see that she has the courage and platform to really give all these “techbros” both barrels.

I hope Dale resigns. No apology can make up for his dickishness. He can’t claim it was a simple mistake or misunderstanding when it went on for so long.

[Mr. Scram]

I am sure Naomi has help in doing her projects... because everybody has help doing their projects somewhere along the line if it's in person or online or whatever.  It's called learning stuff.

I think that some people see the way she presents, and the projects she's doing, and this forms some irreconcilable conflict in their head, they figure it must be one or the other, bimbo or builder.  That is their failing, not hers.

STEM is full of people (especially on youtube) who radically break the societal norms.

Could it be some people notice the way she presents herself, without creating any additional conflict with her work? Though I don't think what happened here is pretty, as the two do seem to be connected, it doesn't necessarily have to be the case every time.

[tggzzz]

I don't get it why Mr. Dougherty thought that she is not genuine.

Yeah, just dumb. You'd think the editor of a magazine, a freaking journalist by profession would at least have a clue. Let alone one that has been into making for so long and is effectively the spearhead of the maker community.
Any viewing of her stuff shows that she's the real deal when it comes to making 
It's so stupid that I can't help but think there is something sinister behind it...

Well yes, except...

Even before I was an engineer, I always looked for cause and effect. That predisposes me towards the "conspiracy theory of history". However, as I've got older it has become more apparent that the "cockup theory of history" is often but not always a sufficient explanation.

Whichever is true in this case, it seems like Dougherty will have done more to break down "male chauvinist pig" attitudes than Naomi could have done on her own; good.

Let's hope Naomi manages to use this idiocy to promote herself and her brand

[amyk]

Hmm... I doubt she is multiple people, but I've watched a few of her videos and something feels slightly off to me too... I'd say "persona" is right. Either way, not something a CEO should be saying directly like that.

There's also this, which has some interesting theories and evidence:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SexyCyborgLiar/comments/69nq53/naomi_sexy_cyborg_wu_is_a_liar_and_a_fake/

For comparison, here are some definitely-real women; watch their videos and learn:

Jeri Ellsworth
Natalie Silvanovich
Oona Räisänen

I'll conclude by saying that there are plenty of very intelligent women in the tech industry, but it's often the loudest and flashiest who unfortunately get the bulk of the attention.

[BBBbbb]

I think I watched only one of her videos, the one where she was putting those LEDs on her clothing. Nothing that I found interesting from an engineering standpoint, so I never revisited her.

We all seem to be avoiding, due to sensitivity, fact that she’s using the old rule “sex sells”, and I wouldn’t blame anyone from the public who would find this inappropriate, but it’s a legitimate business model, and somebody from the “media world”, like this CEO of Make should know better than to give a dumbass criticism like this.

And what if she’s not doing everything herself, like she’s the only one... I don’t understand really why is that a talking point.

Ok, maybe it’s just me, but I don’t care how the content is delivered, as long as it’s interesting and I can keep up with the info being served. I don’t like her appearance, as I find her looks unhealthy (fragile frame low on muscle mass burdened by huge implants), but I don’t watch her as I don’t care for LED tapes being sewed onto a skirt. Same way the shirtless Dave wasn’t the reason for me watching the ECG video.

[FrankBuss]

Hmm... I doubt she is multiple people, but I've watched a few of her videos and something feels slightly off to me too... I'd say "persona" is right. Either way, not something a CEO should be saying directly like that.

There's also this, which has some interesting theories and evidence:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SexyCyborgLiar/comments/69nq53/naomi_sexy_cyborg_wu_is_a_liar_and_a_fake/

There is no evidence, just conspiracy theories.

Of course she gets help, she says this herself, e.g. for her English, or she wrote about asking engineers at DJI about a problem with her copter. All engineers do this. But I'm sure the projects she does are based on her own ideas and she designs the 3D things in Tinkercad herself and builds the things herself, which are really not that complicated that you would need a team for it. And she is talented with mechanical constructions in general, I think I couldn't do this, at least it wouldn't look that nice and clean:

[idpromnut]

I hope Dale resigns. No apology can make up for his dickishness. He can’t claim it was a simple mistake or misunderstanding when it went on for so long.

No. Not this. No one should EVER crawl away from their mistakes. You fucked up? You step up, you apologize, and more importantly, you do what you can to make amends. In this case, Mr. Dougherty resigning would be the exact wrong thing he could do, as it would limit his ability to make amends towards Ms. Wu and the maker community. What he should do now is follow through with action that will help Ms. Wu regain her credibility (as Bunnie has posted in his Blog post).

Never run away from a mistake. Never. EVER. You haven't learned anything if you do.

[Mr. Scram]

No. Not this. No one should EVER crawl away from their mistakes. You fucked up? You step up, you apologize, and more importantly, you do what you can to make amends. In this case, Mr. Dougherty resigning would be the exact wrong thing he could do, as it would limit his ability to make amends towards Ms. Wu and the maker community. What he should do now is follow through with action that will help Ms. Wu regain her credibility (as Bunnie has posted in his Blog post).

Never run away from a mistake. Never. EVER. You haven't learned anything if you do.

I don't agree with the policy in politics either. You mess up, and you are forced to leave, with the experience you gained. Instead of reparing your mess, you get put to the side, only to appear on the stage a few years later again.

[Cerebus]

Official response from Dale

https://makezine.com/2017/11/06/open-note-to-naomi-wu/

Here's the whole apology:

Naomi, I apologize for my recent tweets questioning your identity. I was wrong, and I’m sorry.

The invitation that we had previously issued for you to speak on the main stage at the upcoming Maker Faire Shenzhen is still very much in place.  Let me know if you’d like to present, and I will get you scheduled. I invite you to discuss the issues you have raised and your own journey and work as a Maker.

To Naomi and everyone in the community, I want to say as strongly as I can that we want Make: to be inclusive and provide an arena for all Makers to share their projects, values, challenges, and humanity in a safe and supportive environment. If we fail at that, we take it seriously. I failed on Sunday and learned a valuable lesson from all of you about that. I can do better — and I will.

—Dale

To me that reads like "Sorry I got caught, I'd better say something to moderate the backlash" not like a proper apology.

The most damning thing in all this is that three days before the infamous tweet he asked Bunnie Huang about her. Here's what Bunnie had to say:

What is personally disappointing is that Dale reached out to me on November 2nd with an email asking what I thought about an anonymous post that accused Naomi of being a fake. I vouched for Naomi as a real person and as a budding Maker; I wrote back to Dale that “I take the approach of interacting with her like any other enthusiastic, curious Maker and the resulting interactions have been positive. She’s a fast learner.”

To me, that adds premeditation to the tweet. This wasn't something carelessly said in a moment. This had enough time and thought behind it that he knew, or ought to have known - especially as a professional media producer, how damaging the allegation was if it was wrong, and how wrong it would be to even make that allegation of there was any doubt about it; and it seems that he was in possession of more reliable evidence that the allegation was wrong than he had evidence supporting the allegation.

That would lead a reasonable person to at least question whether there isn't some other agenda at work behind Dale's tweet. Perhaps there isn't, but if there isn't at least a reasonable rationale behind his actions then that would speak to an almost psychopathic disregard for the consequences to other of his actions.

To properly apologise for all that his apology needs to be grovelling, heartfelt and offer some explanation for his actions.

For those who don't know, Maker Media are part of the O'Reilly publishing empire. It will be interesting to see how they react to this. In my opinion, it certainly isn't acceptable for them to just sit on their hands.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hmm... I doubt she is multiple people, but I've watched a few of her videos and something feels slightly off to me too... I'd say "persona" is right. Either way, not something a CEO should be saying directly like that.

I sort of know what you mean, but having seen more, her later videos seem more "natural". I think it's probably down to her sometimes using a script that has been proofed by a native-English speaker, as most of her English has come from sub-optimal Chinses schools and TV/Movies.
The fact that she doesn't fit most peoples' experience of watching/listening to Chinese people may also lead to a subconscious "something's not quite right" feeling.
Here's a vid with her on Serpentza's channel that you may not have seen, which is more conversational

[tszaboo]

The way everyone (especially her) is freaking out over 1-2 tweets is the real problem. Or the opinion of a person. On a Sunday. Now, he is supposed to resign. Maybe we are just supposed to wear those badges from The Orville, and lobotomize everyone who is hated on the net.
But especially if he is a white man. Oh, if you are one of them, then you are not entitled to express your opinion on anyone else. Oh, no. Makes you one of them nazis.

[ruairi]

The way everyone (especially her) is freaking out over 1-2 tweets is the real problem. Or the opinion of a person. On a Sunday. Now, he is supposed to resign. Maybe we are just supposed to wear those badges from The Orville, and lobotomize everyone who is hated on the net.
But especially if he is a white man. Oh, if you are one of them, then you are not entitled to express your opinion on anyone else. Oh, no. Makes you one of them nazis.

That's hilarious, sure…white men are the real victim here.  Give me a f*cking break.

According to Bunnie, what he did and said has had an effect on her ability to make a living.  This is real life for a a real person who has worked hard to build a brand, not just internet play.

[Cerebus]

The way everyone (especially her) is freaking out over 1-2 tweets is the real problem. Or the opinion of a person. On a Sunday. Now, he is supposed to resign. Maybe we are just supposed to wear those badges from The Orville, and lobotomize everyone who is hated on the net.
But especially if he is a white man. Oh, if you are one of them, then you are not entitled to express your opinion on anyone else. Oh, no. Makes you one of them nazis.

What one says has consequences, as any adult ought to know. One ought to weight up those consequences before one opens one's mouth, especially if one is publishing them to the world, especially when one is an experienced editor who ought to expect one's words to carry weight with one's readers. You can mouth off, you're one small man and the world will largely ignore you, Dale Dougherty, the editor of a magazine with a world wide reputation, mouthing off is another matter entirely.

It seems you don't grasp the difference between having an opinion about someone and quietly stating it in private, and claiming on a world-wide platform, from a position of relative power, that they are a sham.

That's what it's about, not that Dale is white, or that Naomi has big norks, or isn't ugly enough to be an engineer*, or any of the other totally irrelevant and divisive characteristics that one could discover in this situation.

*There's a reason that most of us on here hide behind avatars, and it isn't a burning need for anonymity. 

[Marco]

There are multiple e-celebs in this field which work with massive sponsorship deals and hand out parts of their projects.

The fact that she markets herself on sex-appeal is the only distinguishing factor anyone can prove really and condemning her on a hunch is just a tad sexist. All you can condemn her for for certain is not being very tasteful, for a given taste, then again neither is the blatant commercialism of many other e-celebs. Capitalism isn't tasteful.

PS. the witch hunting the me-too shit kicked off isn't very tasteful either. He build a brand and career as well, one mistake of his shouldn't wipe out any career ... if we don't stop knee jerking there won't be anyone left unkicked in the end.

[NiHaoMike]

I don’t like her appearance, as I find her looks unhealthy (fragile frame low on muscle mass burdened by huge implants)

She's Asian and Asians tend to be on the skinny side. One of my Asian friends, once an IEEE model at Texas A&M, is even skinnier than her. That is not to say that Asians (or anyone) have to be crazy skinny to be attractive, of course.

If you prefer women who are modest and very strong (as in strong enough to lift one end of a Nissan Leaf battery!), watch Rinoa Super-Genius instead. You'll find a number of instances where her modesty causes some thermal issues and she even goes to length to build an electronic contraption to keep her cool. Naomi's low tech solution seems to be far more effective and (at least to some) cooler looking as well.

[FrankBuss]

PS. the witch hunting the me-too shit kicked off isn't very tasteful either. He build a brand and career as well, one mistake of his shouldn't wipe out any career ... if we don't stop knee jerking there won't be anyone left unkicked in the end.

As a good journalist, he asked other sources for confirmation like Bunnie, and he still wrote this tweet. And in his apologize message he didn't explain why he was wrong. So he could do this again in future, who knows why, maybe he got grumpy. These are all reasons to resign as a CEO for such a reputable brand (except maybe someone could ask about the connections of Make Magazine and DARPA, but this would be another topic and some people might argue it is not bad, if it is good for Amerika).

[tszaboo]

The way everyone (especially her) is freaking out over 1-2 tweets is the real problem. Or the opinion of a person. On a Sunday. Now, he is supposed to resign. Maybe we are just supposed to wear those badges from The Orville, and lobotomize everyone who is hated on the net.
But especially if he is a white man. Oh, if you are one of them, then you are not entitled to express your opinion on anyone else. Oh, no. Makes you one of them nazis.

That's hilarious, sure…white men are the real victim here.  Give me a f*cking break.

According to Bunnie, what he did and said has had an effect on her ability to make a living.  This is real life for a a real person who has worked hard to build a brand, not just internet play.

What effect? Did anyone unsubscripte because of this? All I'm seeing is that she got free publicity.
Look at her twitter. Tell me, who is the judgmental here?

"I should clarify that is penis vagina sex. Because of course I need men to do everything for me. They smell of oak and flannel."
""People in Shenzhen" bullshit. Lying asshole."
"Nothing will happen. Old white men like @timoreilly don't hold men like Dale accountable for what they do to yellow women in the 2nd world."

This is what is happening.
For me this thread is closed.

[mikeselectricstuff]

What effect? Did anyone unsubscripte because of this?

She has reportedly lost sponsorship deals.

[Dubbie]

As a good journalist, he asked other sources for confirmation like Bunnie, and he still wrote this tweet. And in his apologize message he didn't explain why he was wrong. So he could do this again in future, who knows why, maybe he got grumpy. These are all reasons to resign as a CEO for such a reputable brand

This to me is why he should resign. He didn’t make a mistake. He demonstrated that he holds attitudes that are incompatible with his position. His apology did zero to demonstrate that he had changed. Basically it’s the issue that he is not qualified for his job. For other expertise areas, no one expects that an incompetent CEO will “figure it out eventually”.

[taydin]

I watched the video where she builds the 3D printer and curiously, I had a lot of trouble concentrating on the 3D printer   

Joke aside, it is obvious that her looks are a very big part of her business model.

[BBBbbb]

I don’t like her appearance, as I find her looks unhealthy (fragile frame low on muscle mass burdened by huge implants)

She's Asian and Asians tend to be on the skinny side. One of my Asian friends, once an IEEE model at Texas A&M, is even skinnier than her. That is not to say that Asians (or anyone) have to be crazy skinny to be attractive, of course.

If you prefer women who are modest and very strong (as in strong enough to lift one end of a Nissan Leaf battery!), watch Rinoa Super-Genius instead. You'll find a number of instances where her modesty causes some thermal issues and she even goes to length to build an electronic contraption to keep her cool. Naomi's low tech solution seems to be far more effective and (at least to some) cooler looking as well.

It was a comment from an engineering point of view.
I have no problem with her being skinny, but that frame is too fragile for that amount of silicone. At one point it’s going to take its toll on the lumbar area and could easily lead to kyphosis.

Regarding my type of women, man not sure you or many other would share my taste. Powerlifting as an occasional hobby left some serious consequences. I like them a lot bigger and stronger. (Likes of Larissa Reis, Michelle Lewin, and bigger...)

[EEVblog]

We all seem to be avoiding, due to sensitivity, fact that she’s using the old rule “sex sells”, and I wouldn’t blame anyone from the public who would find this inappropriate, but it’s a legitimate business model, and somebody from the “media world”, like this CEO of Make should know better than to give a dumbass criticism like this.

That's the thing. I don't think this was just a flippant comment, there has to be some personal motive of sorts behind this.
He only apologised when the Internet blew up in his face.

[EEVblog]

To me that reads like "Sorry I got caught, I'd better say something to moderate the backlash" not like a proper apology.
The most damning thing in all this is that three days before the infamous tweet he asked Bunnie Huang about her. Here's what Bunnie had to say:

What is personally disappointing is that Dale reached out to me on November 2nd with an email asking what I thought about an anonymous post that accused Naomi of being a fake. I vouched for Naomi as a real person and as a budding Maker; I wrote back to Dale that “I take the approach of interacting with her like any other enthusiastic, curious Maker and the resulting interactions have been positive. She’s a fast learner.”

To me, that adds premeditation to the tweet. This wasn't something carelessly said in a moment.

Yep, that's the big thing here. Dale approached Bunnie because, well, not many come with a bigger reputation, and he knows Naomi personally.
If should have been done and dusted right there from a journalistic investigation standpoint.

Should they put her on the front cover of the next issue? 

[donotdespisethesnake]

Dale Dougherty is clearly not fit to be be CEO of an important company in the maker community! Maybe champion of women in tech, Lady Ada, and her white knight, Phil Torrone, will start an internet  campaign to depose personal friend and former colleague, Dale Dougherty, from his influential office?

Oh wait, maybe not 

[coppice]

Before this I knew who Naomi Wu is. I've been surprised over the last year or two how many people with no interest in technology seem to know who Naomi Wu is.

Before this I had never heard of Dale Dougherty or Make magazine.

Sounds like someone thinks no publicity is bad publicity, and acted accordingly.

[chicken]

For a bit of context, one should keep in mind that she was publicly hackling Make and Makerfaire for months. She finally succeeded to provoke an unprofessional response from Dougherty with the accompanying internet blow-up. Congratulations, I guess.

As an example, see this article about her from last January:
http://www.makery.info/en/2017/01/30/sexy-cyborg-la-communaute-maker-est-reservee-aux-privilegies-blancs/

"If she was invited this January 21-22 to the Bangkok Mini Maker Faire, last October 2016, her own hometown of Shenzhen preferred to do it without her—much to her chagrin."

"When you have a Maker Faire in a city of 10 million without a single local female Maker- your "movement" is broken"

And to the Raspberry Pi foundation: "When you have an all White "Educational Foundation" snubbing a self-taught female Maker from a 2nd world country- your "movement" is broken".

Way to make friends.

[janoc]

I watched the video where she builds the 3D printer and curiously, I had a lot of trouble concentrating on the 3D printer   

Joke aside, it is obvious that her looks are a very big part of her business model.

Well, she actually admits so much here:
https://pastebin.com/V3474kYs

Good read, explains a lot of thing why she is doing things in the way she is. She also says very clearly that she is Chinese, in China her looks never gave her trouble and it is not really her fault that Westerners assume that cultural norms are the same everywhere (they aren't).

Seriously, fellow guys, if we can't keep our hormones in check because of a half-naked Chinese girl with boob implants and resort to things like slut-shaming her or assume she has to be a bimbo, that's really not her problem but ours. Requiring women to dress "modestly" so that our manly sensitivities are not offended and our hormones are not distracting us from the discourse is something the likes of Taliban do. I thought we were a bit more civilized than that?

[NiHaoMike]

I watched the video where she builds the 3D printer and curiously, I had a lot of trouble concentrating on the 3D printer   

Joke aside, it is obvious that her looks are a very big part of her business model.

The interesting part is that she doesn't consider herself a model. Maybe because unlike the other models I know who are also engineers, she doesn't model for a company or organization. (Joanne Chiang, however, is also independent but does call herself a model...) Doesn't change the fact that if you have a 4K display, turning on the high quality upscaler is well worth the fraction of a cent in lost mining profits. (I actually leave the high quality upscaler on even when watching content that does not take advantage. Those extra fractions of a cent are not worth the effort to constantly change settings.)

Regarding my type of women, man not sure you or many other would share my taste. Powerlifting as an occasional hobby left some serious consequences. I like them a lot bigger and stronger. (Likes of Larissa Reis, Michelle Lewin, and bigger...)

Interesting that the examples you gave show themselves off to about the same extent Naomi does. Apparently being stronger than 95% or so of the general population makes that more acceptable? Another interesting data point is Freelee the Banana Girl, who is an independent Australian fitness model but not a bodybuilder/powerlifter and does often get criticized for showing off too much and being too skinny. (The really funny part is when others claim that her diet would make her fat when results clearly show the opposite!)

[janoc]

Way to make friends.

Seriously, and what was she supposed to do? Be a good girl, shut up, swallow it and toe the line in order to not anger the mighty Make magazine and its CEO?

She spoke up pointing out something she considers unfair. Regardless of whether her action was justified or not, Make could have kept ignoring her or called her out on it if it was incorrect. But none of it justifies the attempts to destroy her reputation - which is pretty much everything in China.

[Cyberdragon]

My how history repeats itself...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr

[rsjsouza]

For a bit of context, one should keep in mind that she was publicly hackling Make and Makerfaire for months. She finally succeeded to provoke an unprofessional response from Dougherty with the accompanying internet blow-up. Congratulations, I guess.

As an example, see this article about her from last January:
http://www.makery.info/en/2017/01/30/sexy-cyborg-la-communaute-maker-est-reservee-aux-privilegies-blancs/

"If she was invited this January 21-22 to the Bangkok Mini Maker Faire, last October 2016, her own hometown of Shenzhen preferred to do it without her—much to her chagrin."

"When you have a Maker Faire in a city of 10 million without a single local female Maker- your "movement" is broken"

And to the Raspberry Pi foundation: "When you have an all White "Educational Foundation" snubbing a self-taught female Maker from a 2nd world country- your "movement" is broken".

Way to make friends.

Well, the article you sent is alright - I really don't see much of anything serious, really, especially with quotes such as:
"It’s the other way around, I actually wear more conservative clothing when taking maker pictures and video for English-speaking social media than I do normally just walking around and running errands. Westerners just seem to get enraged over silly clothes. Well, Americans and British mostly. Europeans and South Americans just think it’s funny and exciting, like Chinese do usually."

Culture greatly varies across the world. I could send pictures of Brazilian people that would make some cultures cringe. 

"I think when trying to participate in a community, being an outsider is always an issue. There are obviously plenty of female makers featured in Make and on the Raspberry Pi Foundation’s website, so that alone is not the issue."

That shows quite a balanced and real way of addressing the hurdles.

What I have a bit of an issue is with:
"That there was a deliberate decision to exclude me is something pretty much everyone agrees on. Whether it’s justified is really the only point of contention. Make had been in contact with me for months but felt that it was preferable to have no female Chinese makers at the Shenzhen Maker Faire in October rather than to have me"

Which goes against my personal belief that merit should be the bar to be chosen to be a highlighted speaker.

One quote that reveals her sentiment towards the publishers/makers/organizers is:
"Two years ago when I came across making, and all the books and magazines said they wanted people like me, I assumed that it was true. Now I know that people can achieve status within a community simply by saying they have certain values—without the inconvenience and wasted resources of acting on them."

I can't say I disagree with her based on the quote above (I have seen this happen myself), but perhaps they simply didn't see enough merit in her work to pursue further promotion? That or the numerous "books and magazines" can't be all wrong and perhaps there is more to the story that it is brought to light?

And yes, I disagree with the CEO for making the poor judgment call. Regardless of her heckling, there were many other ways to address this apart from trying to tear apart the image/reputation in a somewhat ad hominem way. The effects a tweet or opinion of a person of influence is quite disruptive to a regular person that works in the same field. Is it enough to sack him? I am not entirely sure, but publicly extend the hand to help untangle the position the person was put would certainly be a good act.

[langwadt]

all things considered she should probably send him a xmas present, you can't buy this kind of exposure

[chicken]

<quote>but felt that it was preferable to have no female Chinese makers at the Shenzhen Maker Faire in October rather than to have me"</quote>

That's her side of the story. It may have gone down something like this:

Real Sexy Cyborg: Hey I'm an Internet personality doing maker stuff with a hot YouTube channel. We should do something together.

Makerfaire: (watching a few videos with a lot if skin, thinking about their target audience - kids, families, schools) Errr, thanks, we don't think it's a fit.

Real Sexy Cyborg: wah wah Make is discriminating against women!

The cultural thing goes both ways. While her outfit may be acceptable in down-town Shenzen, Make would be in hot water with a lot of its target audience in the West with a figurehead like Naomi.

[Cerebus]

The cultural thing goes both ways. While her outfit may be acceptable in down-town Shenzen, Make would be in hot water with a lot of its target audience in the West with a figurehead like Naomi.

Yeah, because pasty faced middle aged hipsters are sooo attractive as figureheads.

OK, that's a bit snarky but I think it's justified in the circumstances.

The conversation here has gone back to revolve around Naoumi's appearance, rather than the substance of all this, which is, lest we forget, an experienced editor, ignoring trustworthy sources to favour and promulgate an anonymous accusation that Naoumi was a front, a fake, whose work was really done by others.

Anyone would think that some folks are so insubstantial that the sight of a sexy woman makes them incapable of rational thought from that point onward.

[FrankBuss]

Makerfaire: (watching a few videos with a lot if skin, thinking about their target audience - kids, families, schools) Errr, thanks, we don't think it's a fit.

She was at a Maker Faire in Bangkok and can dress more "family friendly", as she called it: https://imgur.com/a/X85wY

[janoc]

The cultural thing goes both ways. While her outfit may be acceptable in down-town Shenzen, Make would be in hot water with a lot of its target audience in the West with a figurehead like Naomi.

Which would be relevant if:

a) She wanted to be such figurehead (she doesn't - she complained about the event in Shenzen, not in the West)

b) She didn't say explicitly that she respects the cultural norms of other places (see the FAQ she posted - it is right there). So one can assume that she would dress differently if she was to be on the cover of Western edition of Make.

OTOH, I don't see why - her look is very much part of her identity, her brand. And let's not talk that "family friendly" BS - twerking Miley Cyrus is not a problem but a Chinese girl in crop top putting a 3D printer together is?

So this is pretty much a strawman argument. And again, for some reason, it focuses on how she looks and chooses to dress - as if that was somehow making her point less valid. I haven't seen a man's look or choice of dress being considered relevant when discussing something similar.

[EEVblog]

Makerfaire: (watching a few videos with a lot if skin, thinking about their target audience - kids, families, schools) Errr, thanks, we don't think it's a fit.

She was at a Maker Faire in Bangkok and can dress more "family friendly", as she called it: https://imgur.com/a/X85wY

Preface:
I fully support Naomi and have done so publicly on several occasions, and am not trying to provide an excuse for what Dale did in any way at all, I think he did a duche thing very deliberately.

So ignoring all other issues at play here, let's play devils advocate on the "image/branding" issue alone and turn the tables over and see what happens, as I think this is an interesting side discussion. And this can apply to anyone, not just Naomi.

I get invited to lots of conferences and faires, but let's say I started dressing up in a Borat Mankini in videos and renamed my channel and twitter handle to RealSexyDave and started turning up to interviews and site visits in said mankini and that was now my "look" and "brand".
What would happen? I'd get dis-invited quicker than you can blink, and all requests to feature or present at any conference or faire would be met with deathly silence, that is practically guaranteed.
And I'm a "white male".

The point is obviously that in a practical world you can't expect zero consequences for being extremely outside the "norm", and I'm sure Naomi would agree. Gender and race, it doesn't matter. She has chosen her brand and appearance as "sexy" (and more power to her), and some good opportunities will come from that, and some opportunities will be missed because of that, that's the nature of the game.
Not everyone will take her seriously or want their event/brand to be associated with her "image". It's unfortunate, I as much as anyone would like a meritocracy based society, and we should work towards that. But I'm not naive enough to think that's even close to 100% possible.
The "celebrity" based thing can often work in your favour too, be it appearance based, or news or social media based or something else. Take a look at "Clock Boy", a kid with near zero skills gets invites to all sorts of opportunities.

And it's not just appearance, it could be your political leanings. Say you tweeted constantly about the Jews or *insert controversial political hot topic here*, the result would be the same, you'd miss lots of opportunities regardless of how good you are and your body of work are.

How many celebrities have been dis-invited from events or had their careers ruined by a single tweet because people and companies don't want to be associated with what that person said?
Take Dilbert creator Scott Adams, his very successful speaking career was completely ruined because he said Trump would win the election and outlined his technical reasons why. And he didn't support Trump, it was purely a technical commentary on his chances. Boom, engagements cancelled and no more invites, career gone.

[Cerebus]

@RealSexyDave:

[TerraHertz]

As one of her fans since she first showed up on the net, I've observed several factors in her story:
* There are large numbers of very negative people on the net, who just like to try and tear down anyone who seems to be doing well. The more successful someone is, the more the losers attack. You can find many discussions of this mentality, with labels like psychopaths and narcissists. There really are many people who just waste good oxygen.

* Reacting to and engaging the losers, just gives them more incentive to continue attacking. The only practical way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.

* Something in Naomi's character makes her unable to ignore detractors, no matter how absurd their attacks. She spends way too much time in battles with Trolls. She always easily and spectacularly wins in the eyes of fair observers, but she can never ultimately win that war since there are infinite numbers of Trolls.

About her assumed persona:
* In her teens she identified a problem: How to avoid the unbearable fate of becoming one of millions of anonymous factory workers? I gather her family/financial situation didn't allow for the university path. Her solution was brilliant, and shows an incredible creativity, intelligence and determination. She self-taught herself enough coding skills to freelance, earned enough money for the boob job, and made herself into 'Sexy Cyborg'. The entire purpose was to stand out. Which she very effectively does.

* It's important to realize that her boob job was not for the same purpose as many women get breast enlargements. Typically it's to make money by pandering to (some) male's fetish, doing porn, marrying some rich guy. In her case it was part of a theme - becoming an artificial person, a cyborg, while pursuing a public technology arc. It's more like a kind of artform. I don't like fake boobs in general, but admire her choices for their creativity.

* The 'minimal permissible clothing' thing is a thematically consistent part of her persona. What many people who only bother to seek the extremes of her range don't realize, is that she adapts her style to the social expectations of where she is. When she went to a Maker show in Thailand for instance, she dressed quite conservatively. Still very bright and stand-out, but well covered. I think people who avoid inviting her to mainstream Maker shows don't bother to even ask how she'd dress at their show. Or maybe it's true they have other reasons for excluding her they'd rather not state, and just use the clothing stuff as an excuse.

* Having grown up in China, which is pretty blase about such things as clothing choices, she didn't anticipate something she encountered when her network persona went global. Religion-based wowsers, in America particularly. I'm pretty sure she walked into that one entirely unprepared. She still doesn't really get it - that it doesn't matter what she says or does, her appearance just triggers the witch-burning instinctive hate reflex in a lot of sexually repressed types. They don't even know why they react that way or how stupid it is, and they are certainly not going to change their attitudes under any circumstances. This blends with the Narcissist hate response, into a very poisonous result. Luckily she's not within geographical reach of those guys, or it would be mobs with flaming torches and pitchforks time.
Anyway, she can't resist trying to argue with them. Bad luck for her.

* There's really only one mystery about Naomi. Many of her photos and videos are selfie stick or tripod sets. But some are taken by another person. Who has never, ever been shown. At most sometimes an extra meal set at her table. Might even be multiple people at different times, friends, family, boyfriend, etc. Doesn't matter. They are not doing the projects, she is.

* I know for sure it's her conceiving and carrying out her own projects, not due to what she achieves, but rather what fails. She has had a few fails, and they are all exactly what I would expect from someone with her background, age, and lack of experience. If she had an older, more tech-experienced person helping, guiding or scripting her, those fails would not have happened. For instance one of them was her trying to implement a driver circuit for her LCD-see-through skirt. She wanted to matrix drive it, in patterns. She bought a proto plug board, and tried to implement the scanning circuit on it. Nice try, probably would have worked, except in pics of the proto board I could see she doesn't understand about grounding, supply caps, ringing on lines, etc. She got very frustrated over why it didn't work. She has no oscilloscope btw, would someone PLEASE give her one and show her how to use it? (I would, but she refuses to communicate.) Anyway, it was an electronics nube conceptual mistake, that revealed she definitely does not have anyone knowledgeable helping her with even basic electronics theory. She's fiercely independent, will sometimes ask for advice among her circles, but other times tries to smash through all on her own. Respect for that!
Though, hopefully eventually she'll learn that true engineering means getting whatever help you can.

* The American guy claiming she's not real... ha ha. Probably an idiot, sexist, racist, American-Exceptionalist, whatever. Just finds the idea of her success story offensive to his narrow worldview, didn't bother to do any web searching, and stuck his foot-in-mouth. Now has been taught a quick lesson in not being a jerk.
Best to simply ignore such people, no matter who they are. It's very unfortunate someone like him runs an important Maker magazine. But then, virtually ALL the mainstream media is in the hands of corrupt, biased people who should be in jail for various reasons, so what else is news?

I still can't decide if I wish she was less combative, or if that is really essential to her success.

Edit: left out a point. And a word.

[BBBbbb]

Regarding my type of women, man not sure you or many other would share my taste. Powerlifting as an occasional hobby left some serious consequences. I like them a lot bigger and stronger. (Likes of Larissa Reis, Michelle Lewin, and bigger...)

Interesting that the examples you gave show themselves off to about the same extent Naomi does. Apparently being stronger than 95% or so of the general population makes that more acceptable? Another interesting data point is Freelee the Banana Girl, who is an independent Australian fitness model but not a bodybuilder/powerlifter and does often get criticized for showing off too much and being too skinny. (The really funny part is when others claim that her diet would make her fat when results clearly show the opposite!)

I thing you didn't understand me in the way I intended to be understood. I never said I have a problem with her way of presentation. I said "sex sells" model is fine with me, I'm just not interested in it, and I'd rather spend my time on "higher level" electronic videos than on what she's offering.
Ladies I mentioned were just as an example of my personal taste in women, and they are someone who is straight up cashing on their looks, more as a reply to your suggestion for me for a stronger woman in electronics.
Simply, I don't care how my presenter looks like, otherwise an easy conclusion would be that I have quite a strong fetish on male hands, since I also watch big Clive, pileofstuff, Voltlog...
I still stand by my conclusion that her current body composition is going to lead to health issues along the way.

p.s. what you said about banana girl, those diet/fitness people are 99% bullshit, even those I mentioned, so don't pay too much attention to them.

[Neomys Sapiens]

I pity both Mister Dougherty and those trying to cook up excuses for his Statement for not being able simply to cherish her existence!

[FrankBuss]

I get invited to lots of conferences and faires, but let's say I started dressing up in a Borat Mankini in videos and renamed my channel and twitter handle to RealSexyDave and started turning up to interviews and site visits in said mankini and that was now my "look" and "brand".
What would happen? I'd get dis-invited quicker than you can blink, and all requests to feature or present at any conference or faire would be met with deathly silence, that is practically guaranteed.
And I'm a "white male".

I'm not into men, but I don't think a mankini is sexy. The equivalent would be you, wearing only shorts and sun glasses on the beach, weightlifting, but with oscilloscopes instead of weights, demonstrating some weird earth magnetic field inductance effect, or measuring the Schumann resonances (because you can't do this in the lab) 

[EEVblog]

I'm not into men, but I don't think a mankini is sexy. The equivalent would be you, wearing only shorts and sun glasses on the beach, weightlifting, but with oscilloscopes instead of weights, demonstrating some weird earth magnetic field inductance effect, or measuring the Schumann resonances (because you can't do this in the lab) 

I tweeted this a few days back, an ad for Back Magic cinema cameras.
Damn, if only I was that good looking, imagine the conference invites!   

[Tac Eht Xilef]

The way everyone (especially her) is freaking out over 1-2 tweets is the real problem. Or the opinion of a person. On a Sunday. Now, he is supposed to resign.

Really don't want to get involved in this, because I'm utterly sick of all the sad****s in the world who get their jollys by being dicks to other people behind the anonymity of the net ... but it's not just "1-2 tweets", or "the opinion of [one] person", or even just "on a Sunday".

Dale's post was the explosion at the end of a fuse that was lit months ago by the people involved in the subreddit linked earlier (now deleted) and some associated blogs (all the ones I know of are now also deleted). Blogs like "sexycyborgisaliar.blogpot.com" - again, deleted, but with at least one relevant post preserved for posterity at http://archive.is/GE0he

Look at the dates. Posted May 6th 2017. Comments from August 2017.

So no, it's not just one or two tweets, or just one person, or on a Sunday. Multiple people have been targetting her for months (at least). Across multiple blogs, reddit, etc. Dale decided to blow it open when he did - either because he believed what was being written about her, or because he wanted to get in on the controversy being stirred up. Either way, he deserved what he got.

[rsjsouza]

So ignoring all other issues at play here, let's play devils advocate on the "image/branding" issue alone and turn the tables over and see what happens, as I think this is an interesting side discussion. And this can apply to anyone, not just Naomi.

I get invited to lots of conferences and faires, but let's say I started dressing up in a Borat Mankini in videos and renamed my channel and twitter handle to RealSexyDave and started turning up to interviews and site visits in said mankini and that was now my "look" and "brand".
What would happen? I'd get dis-invited quicker than you can blink, and all requests to feature or present at any conference or faire would be met with deathly silence, that is practically guaranteed.
And I'm a "white male".

I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but It is very difficult for a male to sell himself as a sexy symbol up to the point of being disavowed from the community - the Borat Mankini is pretty much rejected by 100% of the society, men and women. 

In other words, to really feel the issue is to picture a hypothetical scenario where, for example, you stop receiving invitations because of your stance on religion and God - something that "sells" to part of your audience but it can be considered egregious by others and at the same time is not related to the core subject of your channel. I am pretty sure you would be ticked off, especially if a major company in the market released a public statement claiming you were a fraud.

And it's not just appearance, it could be your political leanings. Say you tweeted constantly about the Jews or *insert controversial political hot topic here*, the result would be the same, you'd miss lots of opportunities regardless of how good you are and your body of work are.

In all fairness, it seems that nowadays you don't need a lifetime of tweets - only one can take you to the galleys. 

How many celebrities have been dis-invited from events or had their careers ruined by a single tweet because people and companies don't want to be associated with what that person said?

Take Dilbert creator Scott Adams, his very successful speaking career was completely ruined because he said Trump would win the election and outlined his technical reasons why. And he didn't support Trump, it was purely a technical commentary on his chances. Boom, engagements cancelled and no more invites, career gone.

That is the ideology police state, and could well be the case here.

[EEVblog]

I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but It is very difficult for a male to sell himself as a sexy symbol up to the point of being disavowed from the community

It's also quite hard for a girl to do it to, but a literal string bikini at events will do it just as well as a mankini would.
No one, male, female, or ommpa-loompa can avoid that when you are on the extreme end of societal norms.

In other words, to really feel the issue is to picture a hypothetical scenario where, for example, you stop receiving invitations because of your stance on religion and God - something that "sells" to part of your audience but it can be considered egregious by others and at the same time is not related to the core subject of your channel.

I'd laugh at them, shrug my shoulders and move on. Maybe poke fun at them publicly or something as a bonus.

I am pretty sure you would be ticked off, especially if a major company in the market released a public statement claiming you were a fraud.

Of course, anyone in any field of endeavour would be pissed off when someone calls them a fraud. I would resist that vigorously, just like I do when people accuse me of being a paid shill for companies.
Naomi should totally defend herself against those sorts of accusations, and the best way to do that is to point at stuff you've done, or do new stuff to prove them wrong.

In all fairness, it seems that nowadays you don't need a lifetime of tweets - only one can take you to the galleys. 

Indeed.

[retiredcaps]

In all fairness, it seems that nowadays you don't need a lifetime of tweets - only one can take you to the galleys. 

With all the CCTV, public cameras, twitter, smartphones with microphones/cameras, etc, you should always conduct yourself as if what you say and express will be front page news in your local community/city.

Politicians, CEOs, celebrities, sports figures, etc should all know this by now.

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."
Warren Buffett

[rsjsouza]

I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but It is very difficult for a male to sell himself as a sexy symbol up to the point of being disavowed from the community

It's also quite hard for a girl to do it to, but a literal string bikini at events will do it just as well as a mankini would.
No one, male, female, or ommpa-loompa can avoid that when you are on the extreme end of societal norms.

I wouldn't be so sure, as there are many examples of women considered "too hot to be an engineer" or some other idiocy that gets slammed around on the interwebs.

In other words, to really feel the issue is to picture a hypothetical scenario where, for example, you stop receiving invitations because of your stance on religion and God - something that "sells" to part of your audience but it can be considered egregious by others and at the same time is not related to the core subject of your channel.

I'd laugh at them, shrug my shoulders and move on. Maybe poke fun at them publicly or something as a bonus.

Well, Bunnie's blog indicates she is taking a financial hit - that would change things, especially if you still didn't reach the critical mass to sustain losses of audience/patronage or did not yet diversify your revenue stream. In her particular case, it seems she has another source of income. 

I am pretty sure you would be ticked off, especially if a major company in the market released a public statement claiming you were a fraud.

Of course, anyone in any field of endeavour would be pissed off when someone calls them a fraud. I would resist that vigorously, just like I do when people accuse me of being a paid shill for companies.
Naomi should totally defend herself against those sorts of accusations, and the best way to do that is to point at stuff you've done, or do new stuff to prove them wrong.

100%

[rsjsouza]

In all fairness, it seems that nowadays you don't need a lifetime of tweets - only one can take you to the galleys. 

With all the CCTV, public cameras, twitter, smartphones with microphones/cameras, etc, you should always conduct yourself as if what you say and express will be front page news in your local community/city.

Politicians, CEOs, celebrities, sports figures, etc should all know this by now.

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."
Warren Buffett

Yes. One thing I learned in the many ethics trainings I have done is called the "newspaper test": how would it look if the newspaper published it in the front page?

That alone is almost a good reason to sack the CEO: a puerile judgment that can negatively affect the company brand.

[EEVblog]

I'd laugh at them, shrug my shoulders and move on. Maybe poke fun at them publicly or something as a bonus.

Well, Bunnie's blog indicates she is taking a financial hit - that would change things 

Sure, and I'm not blaming her for fighting back.
Dale is a douche, and by all means fight him, but she should be careful that she doesn't let this whole things consume her.
As I said, the best way forward for her is to point to her work and to keep on doing more stuff that proves people wrong. There basically is no other way to progress forward.
Looking at her twitter feed for example, it's nothing but being consumed by this, and I think that's unfortunate. Actually even before this incident her twitter feed was mostly about similar stuff and her struggles.
For sure, talk up about this stuff and try and change things, but be careful not to let it define you.

The fact is she has, by her own choice, taken on a persona, a look, and a brand that is on the edges of societal norm (and I think that's great BTW), and the fact is that will always hinder her in some areas. Just as would happen to anyone else who is "on the edge" of those societal norms, whatever that may be.
This is not your usual "female in tech" issue (although I'm lead to believe that's especially difficult in China).

[EEVblog]

That alone is almost a good reason to sack the CEO: a puerile judgment that can negatively affect the company brand.

I think it comes close to a sackable offence for such a high profile position.
This wasn't just a one-off outburst. As someone mentioned above, it was lead up to over several months, and he ignored the advice he sought from someone with impeccable reputation who is personally involved that disproved his narrative, and went ahead and slandered anyway.

Personally I think the response should involve Naomi on the front cover of the next issue of Make, 3D printing a bust of Dale with a giant dick on his head 

[chriswebb]

* It's important to realize that her boob job was not for the same purpose as many women get breast enlargements. Typically it's to make money by pandering to (some) male's fetish, doing porn, marrying some rich guy. In her case it was part of a theme - becoming an artificial person, a cyborg, while pursuing a public technology arc. It's more like a kind of artform. I don't like fake boobs in general, but admire her choices for their creativity.

So you don't think she got fake boobs to appeal to lonely men who make up a large percentage of the maker scene?

Not that I fault her for it. She can do what she wants with her body, but let's be realistic here. Even if she uses it to attract an audience, who cares?

[chriswebb]

So you don't think she got fake boobs to appeal to lonely men who make up a large percentage of the maker scene?

To extend your statement, it sounds like it also means all actors/actresses underwent plastic surgery are not true artists?

Good point.

[Mr. Scram]

Yes. One thing I learned in the many ethics trainings I have done is called the "newspaper test": how would it look if the newspaper published it in the front page?

That alone is almost a good reason to sack the CEO: a puerile judgment that can negatively affect the company brand.

That sounds great and holds some truth, but is opmistic drivel at the same time. Everyone has moments he isn't too proud of or where he was outright wrong. It's how we learn. Even the Bible says something about throwing the first stone and that's a rather old book.

Somehow society loves people falling from their pedistool and modern technology has made that all to convenient. It's about time we learn that we all are flawed and heroes don't exist.

Please note that I'm in no way defending Dougherty.

[3db]

@RealSexyDave:

WTF !! 

[3db]

Will there be an EEVBLOG mankini ? 

[amyk]

Here's a vid with her on Serpentza's channel that you may not have seen, which is more conversational

Putting aside her appearance, there's still something about how she behaves which feels unnatural to me, even more so than her usual videos. From her movements, she seems extremely nervous and uncertain. Then again, SexyCyborg, so perhaps that's deliberate and intended...

involved in the subreddit linked earlier (now deleted) and some associated blogs (all the ones I know of are now also deleted). Blogs like "sexycyborgisaliar.blogpot.com" - again, deleted, but with at least one relevant post preserved for posterity at http://archive.is/GE0he

Better save a local copy for future reference. Trying to silence any dissenting opinion is most certainly not doing her any good either...

This in particular caught my attention:

She has almost zero presence on the China Internet. [...] There are no tech blogs created by her in Chinese, no articles written by her in Chinese, no maker how-to's written by her in Chinese. Seems strange that all her tech is only written in English and provided on websites that aren't even allowed in China.

It would be good to hear from the users of Chinese electronics forums (16rd, 38hot, 51cto, amobbs, dzsc, etc.) to see if they've seen her participate there. (I only come across those sites when they appear in searches, and need to use Google Translate to understand most of it.)

[nctnico]

What effect? Did anyone unsubscripte because of this?

She has reportedly lost sponsorship deals.

Aren't the sponsors the problem then? You'd expect a sponsor to do some due diligence before terminating a contract.

Anyway IMHO what Naomi does is show technology can be used for creative/cool projects and some are clearly aimed at women. Her skirt with lights for example gives a cool lighting effect.

[Cerebus]

What effect? Did anyone unsubscripte because of this?

She has reportedly lost sponsorship deals.

Aren't the sponsors the problem then? You'd expect a sponsor to do some due diligence before terminating a contract.

Anyway IMHO what Naomi does is show technology can be used for creative/cool projects and some are clearly aimed at women. Her skirt with lights for example gives a cool lighting effect.

I thought that, back on the first page of this thread, that you'd said you were getting your coat...

For me this thread is closed.

[janoc]

Aren't the sponsors the problem then? You'd expect a sponsor to do some due diligence before terminating a contract.

Yes and no - you will be hard-pressed to find a sponsor that wants their brand associated with some controversy. Few sponsors/advertisers care about whatever you are doing, they care about their brand first and foremost. So expecting them to stand up for you should anything go south is really naive. It is about the money only in the first place.

The Make magazine has a large influence and following in China and now its CEO says that the person promoting your brand is a fraud. The result is that your marketing department goes batshit crazy and will immediately sever any connections in order to protect the brand from being tarnished by it. Who do you think people will believe? A Chinese girl (= a nobody) or a respected Westerner and head of a very popular magazine?

It is the same thing as this video demonetizing BS on Youtube - why do you think Google is doing it? Because advertisers don't want to be associated with certain things. That Google took a very dumb approach to it is another issue but the origin of it is the same.

[Macbeth]

I thought that, back on the first page of this thread, that you'd said you were getting your coat...

Do you want a cookie?

Scratching my head - Cerebus is saying nctnico was getting their coat, then quotes NANDBlog who clearly did get the coat on page 1?

As for Naomi - I'm sure she is legitimate - I mean it's not like she is pretending to do stuff 12 year old kids can't do? Of course someone else is behind the camera for some of her videos, even helped her lift a heavy box, but so what?

Ok she has a SexyCyborg image she likes to portray and I'm glad that Chinese society allows this - see her video with all the "aunties" getting selfies with her and absolutely nobody Weinsteining or molesting her.

So refreshing compared to Western Europe which is embracing vibrant multicultural Islamic diversity with FGM, child sex slave grooming gangs, "honour" killings, acid attacks, and finally for fashion - full burkha and niqabs as beachwear vs Naomi's modest 3D printed wearables.

[Cerebus]

I thought that, back on the first page of this thread, that you'd said you were getting your coat...

Do you want a cookie?

Sure, got a beer to go with it? I would, however, be more interested to know what persuaded nandblog, I got the impression that his position was somewhat, er, entrenched.

[Cerebus]

Sure, got a beer to go with it? I would, however, be more interested to know what persuaded nandblog, I got the impression that his position was somewhat, er, entrenched.

Sure, you can finish mine. Now get off your high hamster.

What's your problem sport? Macbeth obviously can't see what you're getting at, and neither can I. What's wrong with me being curious why nandblog's back in the game when he appeared to wash his hands of it? Have you somehow been appointed "thought reader general" while I was out, allowed to ascribe secret motivations to questioners that they haven't given any actual written hint of?

Have you considered that perhaps it is you who has climbed onto a high horse and, because you weren't looking at what you were doing or what was actually going on around you, now find yourself sitting astride not the grand white charger you hoped for but a child's hobby-horse, looking mildly foolish?

[Cyberdragon]

Do I need to start throwing things at the old married couple again?

What shall it be this time...Ah...I know...

*hurls large breast implants*

The problem with the increase in controversy is that it makes the companies paranoid that any minor innocent little thing might become a big battle of morals, just because they see stuff like this happening. That's probably what's happening with Youtube, they are afraid people like Dale will come in and say utterly stupid stuff that starts a fight of offending people so they try to make everything stupidly over-PC and ruin it for everyone. You can't eliminate the cause of "political incorrectness" because that could be literally anything (large boobed techie) that some sorry little jerk (Dale) gets offended over.

[Marco]

To extend your statement, it sounds like it also means all actors/actresses underwent plastic surgery are not true artists?

They don't even need plastic surgery, they participate in an industry which cherry picks on looks to begin with. Objectification is inherent in acting.

It's regrettable, but the alternative (communism) is worse.

[Cerebus]

What's your problem sport? Macbeth obviously can't see what you're getting at, and neither can I. What's wrong with me being curious why nandblog's back in the game when he appeared to wash his hands of it? Have you somehow been appointed "thought reader general" while I was out, allowed to ascribe secret motivations to questioners that they haven't given any actual written hint of?

Have you considered that perhaps it is you who has climbed onto a high horse and, because you weren't looking at what you were doing or what was actually going on around you, now find yourself sitting astride not the grand white charger you hoped for but a child's hobby-horse, looking mildly foolish?

Aw, come on now. Don't be taking yourself serious all of a sudden. We was havin' fun!
 
Macbeth was pointing out you were quoting ntcnico. There's little reason to call NANDBlog out like that, other than sowing an argument. Expect to be called out in turn. My hobby-horse is ready for it. It's the most ready a hobby-horse has ever been in the history of hobby-horses.

What exactly do you expect when you call someone out like that? Love and cuddles? We can cuddle, but you'd have to hold my beer.

Nobody was calling anybody out except in your imagination. BUT, I did get nandblog and nctnico confused, my bad. I mistook nctnico for nandblog rejoining the conversation, and picked out the relevant message by content, not double checking the names. Similar looking names and easy to confuse if you think you already know what you're looking at. As I say, my bad.

It would have been a lot simpler to clearly point that out to me rather than try to pick a  fight with me. What is the point of taking a simple mistake and rather than correcting it, trying to turn it into a bar brawl? What did you do, come home from the pub spoiling for a fight? Go and sleep it off.

[Cerebus]

Do I need to start throwing things at the old married couple again?

What shall it be this time...Ah...I know...

*hurls large breast implants*

Have you every considered trying to add light instead of heat to a conversation?

I made a stupid mistake in confusing nandblog with nctnico, Mr Scram think's it's a good excuse for a bar fight, and when you could have said something helpful to correct the situation instead you think it's a good idea to hurl a couple of insults into the mix just in case there isn't enough going wrong already. Yeah, real mature...

[Cerebus]

They don't even need plastic surgery, they participate in an industry which cherry picks on looks to begin with. Objectification is inherent in acting.

Take a look at the average British film or theatre cast and I don't think that holds up. Nobody ever picked Michael Gambon, or Bob Hoskins, or Tony Hopkins for their looks.

I'll grant it mostly holds true for Hollywood, but that's a peculiar little corner of its own and some might argue doesn't even count as acting in the proper sense. 

It's regrettable, but the alternative (communism) is worse.

Bit of a non sequitur, I really don't really see where that comes into it. Not rhetorical, I really don't see what your point is there.

[NiHaoMike]

To get back on topic, is anyone other than Dave doing anything to help? I decided to redirect my cryptocurrency miners, or at least the ones where it would make sense to do so. (That means the ones where the mined coins readily convert to a currency she can easily use. I'm handling the exchange so she doesn't have to.) Two additional benefits are that it slows down the rate at which my lab is filling up with electronic parts and it breaks the perception that I'm driving up mining difficulty purely for my own profit. And just to make things interesting, the miners in question are all powered by a 100W solar panel in my backyard, with a 12.8V, 82Ah LiFePO4 battery pack to keep them going at night.

[Cerebus]

Nobody was calling anybody out except in your imagination. BUT, I did get nandblog and nctnico confused, my bad. I mistook nctnico for nandblog rejoining the conversation, and picked out the relevant message by content, not double checking the names. Similar looking names and easy to confuse if you think you already know what you're looking at. As I say, my bad.

It would have been a lot simpler to clearly point that out to me rather than try to pick a  fight with me. What is the point of taking a simple mistake and rather than correcting it, trying to turn it into a bar brawl? What did you do, come home from the pub spoiling for a fight? Go and sleep it off.

I thought was havin' a cuddle. Mixed signals, I suppose. What's wrong with me being curious why you're questioning NANDBlog?

Like I said, go and sleep it off.

[rsjsouza]

(...)but she should be careful that she doesn't let this whole things consume her.(...)

I agree; focusing 100% on the bad stuff is not good.

That sounds great and holds some truth, but is opmistic drivel at the same time. Everyone has moments he isn't too proud of or where he was outright wrong.

That may be drivel to you, but zillions of others lambasted in the public eye with slips much smaller than that will certainly disagree. Like it or not, the world will always hold public figures to a higher standard.

[Marco]

Take a look at the average British film or theatre cast and I don't think that holds up. Nobody ever picked Michael Gambon, or Bob Hoskins, or Tony Hopkins for their looks.

Men are held to different standards and there's always outliers. A simple google search for "British actresses" shows almost exclusively pretty faces (and older versions thereof).

I really don't really see where that comes into it.

The only way to prevent the aesthetic preferences of the audience impacting actor selection (and thus objectifying them) is government intervention in all casting ... communism.

[Cerebus]

Like I said, go and sleep it off.

Let me get this straight. It's not okay for me to question you, because I'm looking for a brawl and need to sleep it off, but it's okay for you to question NANDBlog? I'm just trying to understand this.

Me, I've already admitted I carelessly mis-attributed nctnico's remark to nandblog and mistook it for him re-entering the conversion. Which by the way, not that it will matter to you, I [mistakenly] thought to be an interesting change of mind. 

The very fact that you're pursuing the subject after that admission is prima facia evidence that you're continuing this for the purposes of fomenting trouble. Whether it's because you came home from the pub in a bad mood or you're just shit-stirring for the sake of it is now irrelevant.

You can stay up scribbling about it all night if it makes you happy. Knock yourself out. I'm treating the subject as closed and going to bed.

[Mr. Scram]

Me, I've already admitted I carelessly mis-attributed nctnico's remark to nandblog and mistook it for him re-entering the conversion. Which by the way, not that it will matter to you, I [mistakenly] thought to be an interesting change of mind. 

The very fact that you're pursuing the subject after that admission is prima facia evidence that you're continuing this for the purposes of fomenting trouble. Whether it's because you came home from the pub in a bad mood or you're just shit-stirring for the sake of it is now irrelevant.

You can stay up scribbling about it all night if it makes you happy. Knock yourself out. I'm treating the subject as closed and going to bed.

I don't see what your admission has to do with your questioning of NANDBlog. However, I feel we've puked all over this thread with useless drivel far too much already. I'll do the smartest thing I've done in this thread so far, and rid it of my posts pertaining our discussion. Even if we don't agree, I hope you'll consider to do the same for the sake of the subject and the thread.

P.s. I've asked to remove our messages here and once more in a personal message, without a reply to either. I'm sorry you consider our barfing all over this thread to be more important than the subject at hand.

[Cerebus]

Men are held to different standards and there's always outliers. A simple google search for "British actresses" shows almost exclusively pretty faces (and older versions thereof).

I picked men as examples just because it was easier to pick out some less than handsome ones without being at risk of cries of 'sexism' than had I picked out, erm, plain women. Across all British drama I think the balance of attractive/less so is pretty representative of the population as a whole regardless of gender. I could trot out lots of examples but my argument would be no less anecdotal for them.

I suspect a Google picture search is a biased thing in itself. How far down the list would you have to go to find June Brown, an actress who appears in front of British audiences in Eastenders multiple times a week but probably doesn't make it into a photocall via Google anywhere near the top. For every person using Google image searches, trying to place who they saw in a drama or film last night, there are ten teen age males looking for what teenage males look for - I suspect that skews the image searches ranking algorithm.

[Mr. Scram]

That may be drivel to you, but zillions of others lambasted in the public eye with slips much smaller than that will certainly disagree. Like it or not, the world will always hold public figures to a higher standard.

That's the thing. Public figures, as far as that distinction can be made today, are just like normal people, with all their flaws and shortcomings. In the days of yesteryear, information was scarce, which made it easy to elevate people to unnaturally perfect beings. They weren't humans, they were Platonic ideas. Except that they're not, which becomes ever more clear as we impinge on their personal lives. They get drunk, get in fights, get sick, get herpes, die, or suffer from all the ungracious phenomena that strike normal human beings.

Somehow celebrities and politicians are expected to be nothing like humans beings, which seems much more freighting than them being actually like human beings. Living a "newspaper test" proof life sounds great on paper, but doesn't seem realistically attainable. Again, books as old as the Bible show people understood this back then.

[EEVblog]

Take a look at the average British film or theatre cast and I don't think that holds up. Nobody ever picked Michael Gambon, or Bob Hoskins, or Tony Hopkins for their looks.

Men are held to different standards and there's always outliers. A simple google search for "British actresses" shows almost exclusively pretty faces (and older versions thereof).

Well, film is a visual medium, that is trying to gain the eyeballs of visually oriented humans.
So of course looks are going to often play a large part in role selection.
I don't see a huge distinction between men and women in this respect in hollywood.
You have a few basic "types", that could be loosely broken down into categories like:
- Young and attractive
- Older and distinguished
- Quirky
- And ones that get chosen on other talents like comic ability in which looks don't play a big part

I could name countless examples of each of these on both sides of the gender divide.
And most (also on both sides) won't get very far without some form of genuine acting talent or other appeal beside their looks.

[EEVblog]

Dale is human, just like everyone else, so does Naomi. It's probably just a joke to them, but people here are fighting to death defending their sides.

Be careful you don't confuse commenting on facts and having an opinion on those facts, with "picking a side".

[rsjsouza]

That may be drivel to you, but zillions of others lambasted in the public eye with slips much smaller than that will certainly disagree. Like it or not, the world will always hold public figures to a higher standard.

That's the thing. Public figures, as far as that distinction can be made today, are just like normal people, with all their flaws and shortcomings. In the days of yesteryear, information was scarce, which made it easy to elevate people to unnaturally perfect beings. They weren't humans, they were Platonic ideas. Except that they're not, which becomes ever more clear as we impinge on their personal lives. They get drunk, get in fights, get sick, get herpes, die, or suffer from all the ungracious phenomena that strike normal human beings.

Somehow celebrities and politicians are expected to be nothing like humans beings, which seems much more freighting than them being actually like human beings. Living a "newspaper test" proof life sounds great on paper, but doesn't seem realistically attainable. Again, books as old as the Bible show people understood this back then.

I think we have the same position but are talking from two different angles. I am not saying this is fair or attainable 100% of the time, but politicians/C-level executives are individuals that become blended with the position they chose to be and yes, they will be held to an impossible standard by the public eye and should be constantly reminded of the newspaper test.
Again, I am just stating this fact and not arguing if the general public should have compassion or not - which I think they should and also concede second chances and forgiveness. By the way, forgiveness does not mean a free jail card -  they still have to pay the price stated by society/law/company policy as reparation for their act, which in the case of this CEO it could be termination or a public apology.

[FrankBuss]

And just to make things interesting, the miners in question are all powered by a 100W solar panel in my backyard, with a 12.8V, 82Ah LiFePO4 battery pack to keep them going at night.

What do you mine? If you try to mine Bitcoin with 100W, even with an ASIC miner you would get only cents worth of Bitcoin per day with a pool, and solo mining would be impossible.

Looks like she is getting good money now from her Patreon page anyway:

https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/928722552934998016

Maybe all the publicity caused by the incident helped.

[NiHaoMike]

And just to make things interesting, the miners in question are all powered by a 100W solar panel in my backyard, with a 12.8V, 82Ah LiFePO4 battery pack to keep them going at night.

What do you mine? If you try to mine Bitcoin with 100W, even with an ASIC miner you would get only cents worth of Bitcoin per day with a pool, and solo mining would be impossible.

Not Bitcoin. (That would be near useless for this purpose anyways since Bitcoin is not one of the currencies she currently accepts.) I mine energy efficient altcoins using cheap smartphones, old tablets, and a small ASIC board. Won't list which coins since then everyone would jump on board and decimate the profits. Actually made $5 worth of one coin today despite some pool issues.

[Cerebus]

Dale is human, just like everyone else, so does Naomi. It's probably just a joke to them, but people here are fighting to death defending their sides.

Be careful you don't confuse commenting on facts and having an opinion on those facts, with "picking a side".

I think you've just summed up there the quintessential flaw of the 'post truth' world,  where fact based argument is dismissed as partisan and 'fake news'.

[cdev]

In the final analysis, since we're on a technical topic, the question should boil down to, how interesting technically is the content of somebody's videos.

Watching them, do we learn anything new, or gain a new perspective? Are people waiting for the next one in a series, I mean, really waiting as in checking the YT or other sites to see if they have been posted?

Does somebody break new ground in a topic that's been video-ed to death, which may come naturally to some people, but for other people is likely difficult?

If they don't do that, then maybe something else, like giving the perspective of people, tell some particular story giving you some insight into their unique background or place in their lives, even?

These are all fairly subjective except for the first one. Still, they matter.

[rstofer]

Of course sex sells!  That said, I did enjoy the video linked above about using an extrusion for a miter saw fence.  Clever idea!

I have next to no interest in the mathematical concept of 'limits'.  Suddenly, I want to watch math videos:


I am even trying to learn Spanish so I can watch their weather report:
http://brightcove04.brightcove.com/hd2/o1/2540076170001/2540076170001_5458593926001_4808965861001.mp4

Actually, I don't need a word of Spanish.


My guess is that Naomi Wu just got a LOT of free advertising.

[NiHaoMike]

There's also Infinite Series and Vihart for math presented by females. The latter rarely actually shows herself on video, but has about 8 times as many subscribers as the former who does show up in every video along with plenty of computer generated graphics. I guess many enjoy math presented in cartoons.

Another data point is Joanne Tech Lover (basically the Chinese version of TastyPCTV), who goes with a style that shows off somewhat but would still be considered acceptable in most workplaces, and has about 2/3 as many subscribers as SexyCyborg, but also had a lot more time to get to that number.

[Gromitt]

I am even trying to learn Spanish so I can watch their weather report:
http://brightcove04.brightcove.com/hd2/o1/2540076170001/2540076170001_5458593926001_4808965861001.mp4

Actually, I don't need a word of Spanish.

I think that's Romanian actually.

[sleemanj]

I am even trying to learn Spanish so I can watch their weather report:

Scorchio, scorchio, scorchio, ... nimbo cumulous?!!

[TerraHertz]

One can never have too many links to beautiful girls doing impressive intellectual/artistic feats. Here's a couple more:

Youtube: Yuja Wang  classical pianist. (lots of hits. An interview: youtube   /watch?v=FEulYHnPfaQ   SC should take note.)
eg youtube /watch?v=5thyjP1lpzE  Yuja Wang Chopin Concerto No.2.  Btw, notice something *missing*? No sheet music. She's playing that from memory.

And Jane Zhang: youtube  /watch?v=SBenttZUT7A  (2nd part: She sings the Fifth Element song by the alien. Supposed to be impossible for a human.  My interpretation of this song: The Rigellian Ambassador to Earth, offers comment on the annihilation of the combined Sol starfleet at Barnard's Gap by the Rigellian 4th Fleet.)

[Mr. Scram]

Not to be that guy, but isn't sharing links or videos because they're girls or women, rather than based on the talent, one of the problems some people see?

[NiHaoMike]

On the subject of girls doing amazing things, this may very well be the only video on YouTube of a girl taking apart lithium batteries, without blowing herself up:

There was a close call where one of the cells actually failed due to a bad internal connection and thus was still holding a charge.

That, of course, was done for research in order to make this guide on how to use 18650s:


In some of her other videos, she solders directly to lithium batteries. I have to admit that prior to that, I was too scared to solder to lithium batteries. After carefully watching her do just that, I gave it a try with 60 LiFePO4 32650s and ended up with the battery pack I mentioned earlier. Therefore, it could be said that a really modest girl indirectly helped a very show off girl...

[TerraHertz]

Not to be that guy, but isn't sharing links or videos because they're girls or women, rather than based on the talent, one of the problems some people see?

Some people just like to create problems, because they have nothing better to do, and problems are the only thing they can create. Thinking it's a problem to enjoy the combination of beauty and brains, is one of this modern world's more stupid aberrations. Along with moral relativism, n-genders, 'give socialism one more try', 'you only think you have rights', and 'what Clinton body count?'

By the way, both are Asian. Including SC, that makes three. You wouldn't think I'd still like Asian looks, after being married to a Cambodian lady for 30 years, who gradually developed PTSD from barely surviving through the Pol Pot genocide, and eventually tried to murder me for life insurance, very very nearly succeeding. But she gets a pass. Not in her right mind, I forgive her. So excuse me if I tend to consider some people's concerns shallow and ephemeral.

PS. I linked the Yuja Wang interview, specifically because there's one point in it that I *wish* SC would see and learn from. Yuja's attitude to people who criticize her clothing choices. I love it!

[nctnico]

She sings the Fifth Element song by the alien. Supposed to be impossible for a human.

FYI Emma Shaplin is the one singing that song for the movie.

[JPortici]

Some people just like to create problems, because they have nothing better to do, and problems are the only thing they can create.

 

[langwadt]

On the subject of girls doing amazing things, this may very well be the only video on YouTube of a girl taking apart lithium batteries, without blowing herself up:

There was a close call where one of the cells actually failed due to a bad internal connection and thus was still holding a charge.

That, of course, was done for research in order to make this guide on how to use 18650s:


In some of her other videos, she solders directly to lithium batteries. I have to admit that prior to that, I was too scared to solder to lithium batteries. After carefully watching her do just that, I gave it a try with 60 LiFePO4 32650s and ended up with the battery pack I mentioned earlier. Therefore, it could be said that a really modest girl indirectly helped a very show off girl...

I'll probably get dinged by the PC police for saying that's is a guy, I remember he said something about being trans some years ago, but it never seemed serious. not that it matters

edit, I see on the youtube channel about: 2015 started my MtF gender transition
I hadn't noticed ...

[taydin]

I have next to no interest in the mathematical concept of 'limits'.  Suddenly, I want to watch math videos:

Wow, this was an excellent explanation of the concept of limits. Had forgotten some of those, but remembered them all now. Yes, the girl is beautiful, but it didn't distract me at all from the topic being explained. Very well done and subscribed for the integral topics coming up!

[rstofer]

I have next to no interest in the mathematical concept of 'limits'.  Suddenly, I want to watch math videos:

Wow, this was an excellent explanation of the concept of limits. Had forgotten some of those, but remembered them all now. Yes, the girl is beautiful, but it didn't distract me at all from the topic being explained. Very well done and subscribed for the integral topics coming up!

I think she does a fantastic job.  I have gone through her limits, differential calculus and integral calculus videos.  I can only hope she does a series on differential equations and Laplace Transforms.  If I had a Twitter account, I might ask.  Alas, I don't...

I wonder if she has paid serious attention to the comments on her videos and decided that her audience is deranged.

If you have any interest in Control Systems, here is the beginning of a great series of videos.



There are some seriously smart people making video tutorials!

[GreyWoolfe]

I watched one of her videos.  She certainly has some talent and creativity.  That said, I see no point to her making the video.  We see her construct, that's all.  No schematic, no BOM, no code, no nothing except watching her build, assemble and test.  She doesn't even verbally describe what she is doing.  She speaks English well enough that she could be doing that.  How does that advance the maker movement?  Maybe she does these things in other videos but I don't see me watching any more if them to see if it is the case.  Yes, she is pretty.  Yes, she is artificially endowed.  Yes, she can dress somewhat provocatively.  There are websites for that, not really appropriate for a maker video that any age could be watching, especially if there is no meal before the dessert. If she is making a living doing what she is doing, all the more power to her.  The eye candy doesn't make up for lack of real content that I have seen so far.

[FrankBuss]

We see her construct, that's all.  No schematic, no BOM, no code, no nothing except watching her build, assemble and test.  She doesn't even verbally describe what she is doing.

You are wrong, see for example this video:



And in her account on Thingiverse you can find the full BOM and the 3D models:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1707982

[GreyWoolfe]

Fred, I watched the video.  Where does she say what LEDs she is using?  No where.  She just builds.  Where does she say anything about thingverse?  No where.  I wouldn't have known to look on thingverse without you telling me. 

I wanted to see what the flap was so I go to youtube and watch a video.  NO real information.  I watch a second video.  NO real information.  I am told to check thingverse.  She doesn't say check thingverse, anywhere.  You tell me to check thingverse.  See what I am saying?  I am not criticizing her in any way.  As I said, she has talent and creativity.  For me, there is a set of boobs but no project information in the video.  If I want to look at boobs, I have SWMBO.  I have watched a total of 3 videos.  I don't plan to watch more.  I hope she succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, but she has failed to capture MY interest.  'nuff said.

[NiHaoMike]

In the description, she does link to two image/text blog posts with details, one of which has a link to the plans. Also, in the comments, someone asked for the plans and she replied with the link.

All that is lost if you're a videophile like I am and play it in mpv with fine tuned settings to get that awesome 4K upscaling on the GPU, but anyone who does that should know to go back to the page in order to read the info not in the video itself. (Side note: if you also do GPU mining, high quality upscaling only costs a fraction of a cent in lost profit over the 15 minutes or so of an average video. Just leave the high quality scaling turned on!)

As a counterpoint, Joanne Tech Lover ends each of her videos with her saying where to go for more info and it gets a bit repetitive after watching a few videos.

[hamster_nz]

On "The Great British Bake Off" do they give you the recipe for everything they cook? Maybe just watching somebody create build something is entertainment enough. And I guess it can be doubly interesting if it is something that is around or a little higher than the viewers level of skill.

I think Naomi Wu's channel has a whole post-modern vibe to it. She is somebody who could be judged for her external appearance (and often is, it seems), dressed for showing that appearance, doing something that is mostly nothing about her, and is cerebral and nerdy, and all the time enjoying it. I guess she is a nerd at heart.

So for me it is maker meet unintentional performance artist - I have to be honest and say I don't follow the channel, but I would rather watch it in preference to  the "The Great British Bake-off".

I can also understand why she confused Dale.

[taydin]

I think she does a fantastic job.  I have gone through her limits, differential calculus and integral calculus videos.  I can only hope she does a series on differential equations and Laplace Transforms.  If I had a Twitter account, I might ask.  Alas, I don't...

I wonder if she has paid serious attention to the comments on her videos and decided that her audience is deranged.

If you have any interest in Control Systems, here is the beginning of a great series of videos.

e some seriously smart people making video tutorials!

Thanks for the info! I have a drone project in the works, so some control theory refreshers would be very helpful

I also read that Nancy studied at MIT ... Some people are so fortunate. I remember watching MIT class videos of a nutty professor explaining derivatives on a huge board. He was drawing diagrams with such ease and quality, it was amazing. He used to rattle the chalk to get dashed lines, amazing stuff. Maybe in another life I will be studying there

[FrankBuss]

I also read that Nancy studied at MIT ... Some people are so fortunate.

If you don't need the diploma, many courses are free now:

https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

[coppice]

I remember watching MIT class videos of a nutty professor explaining derivatives on a huge board. He was drawing diagrams with such ease and quality, it was amazing. He used to rattle the chalk to get dashed lines, amazing stuff.

In the hey day of chalk and blackboard lecturing quite a few lecturers seemed to put serious effort into perfecting their high speed straight and evenly dashed line drawing. Ah, the lost arts of the past.....

[Cerebus]

[coppice]

That guy is an amateur. Nice dashing rhythm, but he resorts to a ruler half the time.

[Cerebus]

That guy is an amateur. Nice dashing rhythm, but he resorts to a ruler half the time.

I just posted the first video I found in the category "Walter Lewin drawing dashed lines" and it is the only time I've seen him use a ruler, and I reckon I've watched about 40 hours of lectures from him. So perhaps a poor example.

[FrankBuss]

  I wondered how he did it, no way that he can do it manually. And sure enough, there is a trick:



But wouldn't it be better to use a different color?

[taydin]

Lewin is from a generation that put a man on the moon. Huge respect to them. If a student listens to that dude and doesn't learn, then he is not teachable, period

[HalFET]

Fred, I watched the video.  Where does she say what LEDs she is using?  No where.  She just builds.  Where does she say anything about thingverse?  No where.  I wouldn't have known to look on thingverse without you telling me. 

I wanted to see what the flap was so I go to youtube and watch a video.  NO real information.  I watch a second video.  NO real information.  I am told to check thingverse.  She doesn't say check thingverse, anywhere.  You tell me to check thingverse.  See what I am saying?  I am not criticizing her in any way.  As I said, she has talent and creativity.  For me, there is a set of boobs but no project information in the video.  If I want to look at boobs, I have SWMBO.  I have watched a total of 3 videos.  I don't plan to watch more.  I hope she succeeds beyond her wildest dreams, but she has failed to capture MY interest.  'nuff said.

Looks like run-of-the-mill 12V white LED strips to me.

First time I saw a video of her, but really, does that matter to you? She seems to get more done in a day than most of us in a week... Good idea on the wiring of the frames like that as well actually. My only real complaint about her is the wire stripper she's using, those things are horrible! (I'm a hardcore side cutter advocate when it comes to stripping wires.)

[FrankBuss]

My only real complaint about her is the wire stripper she's using, those things are horrible! (I'm a hardcore side cutter advocate when it comes to stripping wires.)

I used a side cutter as well for years, but once I bought this, and it is really much easier, faster and more reliable (no more wires cut in half accidentally), I use it all the time now:

[HalFET]

Yeah, that style is ok. I don't like the Knipex because it exposes the spring though. The style she's using is annoying as hell to use because you have to hold the wires up to it, very annoying to use within an enclosure since it can't reach in very far. But the main reason to use these is if you're doing a lot of wire stripping, if it's just for one or two it's quicker to go for the side cutters anyway.

[nctnico]

I have a Knipex wire stripper as well (the version which goes to 2.5mm^2). It works like a charm and much better than a side cutter. As a bonus it takes much less effort.

[TerraHertz]

I wondered how he did it, no way that he can do it manually. And sure enough, there is a trick:

Isn't it obvious? He's using stick-slip oscillation, just varying the rigidity of his hand to alter the dash frequency.

Basically the same thing as with the fingernails on blackboard effect, only lower frequency. So if you played his chalk dotted line drawing sped up, it would sound really horrible.

[NiHaoMike]

https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/932136250454163458
I ended up getting a lot of fame out of 100W of photovoltaics . I suppose the only way to get even more fame per watt of PV would involve putting stuff in space...

[Neomys Sapiens]

See attached pic

[NiHaoMike]

Go to 0:33 for a summary of how I felt about mining:

Actually, it was a feeling I first experienced when I began mining over 2 years ago (using cheap smartphones with Snapdragon processors), got renewed a year ago when I got some more cheap Snapdragon smartphones, and got renewed again just yesterday. The Snapdragon bit is still very relevant since the cluster of smartphones is still what's contributing the most to the profits that easily convert to a form Naomi accepts.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Back on topic...
https://makezine.com/2017/11/19/apology-to-naomi-wu/

Rumour has it Make is in financial trouble so let's hope there's a Maker Faire for her to be invited to next year...

[Cerebus]

Rumour has it Make is in financial trouble so let's hope there's a Maker Faire for her to be invited to next year...

Judging by the 'this kind of article is why I'm cancelling my subscription' comments against this article (and doubtless others like it), I can see what that might be true. It also speaks volumes about the quality of the editorial expertise being applied at the magazine.

[Hydrawerk]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/i7_zwFGz1aU
The boobz are made of silicone, I think.

[nctnico]

Back on topic...
https://makezine.com/2017/11/19/apology-to-naomi-wu/

That text seems like it is copied from the manual 'how to recover from a media dissaster'. Perhaps you can get these texts from an on-line generator as well. Just tick some boxes stating the nature of your f***-up and click 'Generate' and there is your apology ready to copy and paste.

[EEVblog]

Back on topic...
https://makezine.com/2017/11/19/apology-to-naomi-wu/
Rumour has it Make is in financial trouble so let's hope there's a Maker Faire for her to be invited to next year...

He got his arse kicked big time by someone higher up at Oreilly, bet your bottom dollar.

And I called it:

With feedback from Naomi, we are working on a set of actions Make: will take to address her concerns.
With permission from Naomi, we will feature Naomi and her work on the cover of the next issue of Make: along with a full-length story about her work.

[EEVblog]

Back on topic...
https://makezine.com/2017/11/19/apology-to-naomi-wu/

That text seems like it is copied from the manual 'how to recover from a media dissaster'. Perhaps you can get these texts from an on-line generator as well. Just tick some boxes stating the nature of your f***-up and click 'Generate' and there is your apology ready to copy and paste.

Deploy the emergency diversity response crisis package!
I expect Dale to "move on" within the next 6 months. You don't survive this much radar exposure these days.

[FrankBuss]

Back on topic...
https://makezine.com/2017/11/19/apology-to-naomi-wu/

This looks more like an appropriate apology. I'm still not sure if he really means it and if he wouldn't do such stupid things in future again, but at least the actions described will more than compensate Naomi for the financial damage.

The boobz are made of silicone, I think.

Yes, she writes this in her official FAQ: 800cc cohesive gel implants.

[Mr. Scram]

That text seems like it is copied from the manual 'how to recover from a media dissaster'. Perhaps you can get these texts from an on-line generator as well. Just tick some boxes stating the nature of your f***-up and click 'Generate' and there is your apology ready to copy and paste.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently.

[firewalker]

So... No such thing as bad publicity! Didn;t knew her channel even existed. I don;t like the content. It reminds my the girl with the nice cleavage that only plays a guitar.

Alexander.

[coppice]

That text seems like it is copied from the manual 'how to recover from a media dissaster'. Perhaps you can get these texts from an on-line generator as well. Just tick some boxes stating the nature of your f***-up and click 'Generate' and there is your apology ready to copy and paste.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently.

Are you saying you are pro-insincerity?

[FrankBuss]

It reminds my the girl with the nice cleavage that only plays a guitar.

Which channel do you mean? I really like this guitar player:



I don't mind that she looks pretty, but she plays really awesome.

[nctnico]

That text seems like it is copied from the manual 'how to recover from a media dissaster'. Perhaps you can get these texts from an on-line generator as well. Just tick some boxes stating the nature of your f***-up and click 'Generate' and there is your apology ready to copy and paste.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently.

Did you read the apology? It is completely over the top and he clearly didn't understand the fuss he has caused. That is the sad thing. The apology Dale wrote is as if he has groped Naomi in the most inappropriate way. What he should have written is: "sorry I had a beer too many and tweeted something utterly stupid. As an editor I should know better and triple check a story before writing anything about it on any medium". That would have been something people can believe.

[firewalker]

It reminds my the girl with the nice cleavage that only plays a guitar.

Which channel do you mean? I really like this guitar player:



I don't mind that she looks pretty, but she plays really awesome.

This: https://www.youtube.com/user/JessGreenberg1/featured

[FrankBuss]

Well, more cleavage, but she doesn't play as good

[Hydrawerk]

I prefer girls/women like Jeri Ellsworth. Naomi Wu looks like she had a multiple plastic surgery. She might be good at 3d printing.

[Mr. Scram]

Are you saying you are pro-insincerity?

I don't recall saying anything of that nature.

[HalFET]

Deploy the emergency diversity response crisis package!
I expect Dale to "move on" within the next 6 months. You don't survive this much radar exposure these days.

By move on I suppose we're talking about the industry standard "Go directly to door, but first pass by HR first, collect your ridiculously large cheque if you have "manager" in your title somewhere?" 

[Mr. Scram]

Did you read the apology? It is completely over the top and he clearly didn't understand the fuss he has caused. That is the sad thing. The apology Dale wrote is as if he has groped Naomi in the most inappropriate way. What he should have written is: "sorry I had a beer too many and tweeted something utterly stupid. As an editor I should know better and triple check a story before writing anything about it on any medium". That would have been something people can believe.

I have read the apology. I think you're underestimating the backlash he has experienced in the past weeks. The first apology was inadequate, so he made sure this one isn't. He's addressing the issues people had with his comment fairly specifically, which indicates he does finally understand the fuss he's caused.

We should also not forget that he's American and part of an American company. With both the US culture being what it is, and the very active debate on the marginalisation of women in various ways, I don't think the apology is over the top.

But again, whatever he says, there'll be a group that's not satisfied. Damned if you do, damned if you won't once more.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Did you read the apology? It is completely over the top and he clearly didn't understand the fuss he has caused. That is the sad thing. The apology Dale wrote is as if he has groped Naomi in the most inappropriate way. What he should have written is: "sorry I had a beer too many and tweeted something utterly stupid. As an editor I should know better and triple check a story before writing anything about it on any medium". That would have been something people can believe.

I have read the apology. I think you're underestimating the backlash he has experienced in the past weeks. The first apology was inadequate, so he made sure this one isn't. He's addressing the issues people had with his comment fairly specifically, which indicates he does finally understand the fuss he's caused.

We should also not forget that he's American and part of an American company. With both the US culture being what it is, and the very active debate on the marginalisation of women in various ways, I don't think the apology is over the top.

But again, whatever he says, there'll be a group that's not satisfied. Damned if you do, damned if you won't once more.

I think the biggest issue is that he simply didn't understand the effect his remarks would have in China, where reputation is important, and Western opinions are takes seriously.

However the timing of the apology, immediately after the end of the SZ Maker Faire, seems somewhat "managed" to say the least. It has been obvious from immeditately after the first "Apology" that it wasn't enough, but has taken this long for something more substantial to come out.
 

[coppice]

Are you saying you are pro-insincerity?

I don't recall saying anything of that nature.

He said unfounded and unpleasant things. When they blew up in his face he responded with what looks like a boilerplate response, drawn up by a PR company. How is "Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently." not condoning this insincere response?

[EEVblog]

I have read the apology. I think you're underestimating the backlash he has experienced in the past weeks. The first apology was inadequate, so he made sure this one isn't. He's addressing the issues people had with his comment fairly specifically, which indicates he does finally understand the fuss he's caused.

Make no mistake, this apology (and it's wording) has been almost certainly forced upon him by the heads at Oreily media.

But again, whatever he says, there'll be a group that's not satisfied. Damned if you do, damned if you won't once more.

The price you pay for being in an influential position and having to own your words.
The thing about his claim and outburst is it was very deliberate and very well considered, he can't expect people to just forgive that.

[Mr. Scram]

He said unfounded and unpleasant things. When they blew up in his face he responding with what looks like a boilerplate response, drawn up by a PR company. How is "Damned if you do, damned if you don't, apparently." not condoning this insincere response?

I don't think it is boilerplate in the sense that it actually addresses the concerns levelled. Most boilerplate responses try hard to be as unspecific as possible, to avoid any actual responsibility. I also don't think another response would appease people more effectively. Here all the stops were pulled out, to make a definitive statement on the matter. I think that's probably the wisest thing you can do, as long as you act accordingly after. Maybe some people would feel it would be more sincere to have a less formal statement, but others will feel he just doesn't get it by having yet another unconventional response.

That's what I meant by "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Whatever you do, people are ready to crucify you for it. It might just be a different group of people.

[Mr. Scram]

Make no mistake, this apology (and it's wording) has been almost certainly forced upon him by the heads at Oreily media.

The price you pay for being in an influential position and having to own your words.
The thing about his claim and outburst is it was very deliberate and very well considered, he can't expect people to just forgive that.

It has a fairly corporate feel to it, and is indeed likely carefully worded by a committee of lawyers and other people who's job it is to weigh every comma.

I don't mind him owning up to what he has said, or being held responsible for it. It's the being crucified for the apology I'm not too sure about. If he catches flak whatever he does next, it feels like it's not about what he did wrong any more.

[nctnico]

I find this an interesting clip and underneath the funny side it kinda touches on what I have been trying to put into these words for a while: IMHO Naomi Wu shows women they don't have to look geeky to be geeky. I have met quite a few women in (software) engineering jobs and they all wear typical male engineer outfits. Probably in order not to stand out and be accepted as a engineer (and for some it still is an uphill battle every now and then). I guess if you are dressed as an engineer you are an engineer.

[Mr. Scram]

I find this an interesting clip and underneath the funny side it kinda touches on what I have been trying to put into these words for a while: IMHO Naomi Wu shows women they don't have to look geeky to be geeky. I have met quite a few women in (software) engineering jobs and they all wear typical male engineer outfits. Probably in order not to stand out and be accepted as a engineer (and for some it still is an uphill battle every now and then). I guess if you are dressed as an engineer you are an engineer.

This applies to men too. When I was on a gig a while back, I could be dressed in coveralls one day, and more formal attire or a suit the next. Going out for lunch, it was remarkable how differently people would treat me from day to day. Even if I wouldn't know how I dressed that morning, I could easily guess based on people's behaviour.

People use a lot of shortcuts when they interact with others. Sometimes that leads to prejudices and lumping people in a group they don't belong to.

[NiHaoMike]

I prefer girls/women like Jeri Ellsworth. Naomi Wu looks like she had a multiple plastic surgery. She might be good at 3d printing.

In terms of pure engineering skills, I think Micah Elizabeth Scott is the one to watch right now. Not only does she do 3D printing and other mechanical engineering, she also does a lot of embedded development and hacking, machine vision using GPUs, as well as system design and integration. All that to assist in playing with her pet cat. If that's not an example of an engineer at heart, I don't know what is...

What I would like to see is TastyPC, CaitlinV3, or Joanne Chiang (all of them are models who enjoy building computers and gaming) getting (more) into DIY electronics and 3D printing, most likely relating to case modding. They would do well for those who think Naomi Wu shows off a bit too much or is a bit too skinny. (Side note: when I showed my cousin a video of Naomi, he thought she was Japanese! It says a lot when a Chinese guy makes that mistake...)

Something else that might be interesting would be a collaboration live stream with Dave and Naomi. At the least, when Dave plays professor like he often does, he'll have someone to play student, albeit more balanced since Naomi has more experience on the art side of things. Maybe more like a professor and a TA, with the audience playing the role of students.

[Dubbie]

In terms of pure engineering skills, I think Micah Elizabeth Scott is the one to watch right now.

I 100% agree with you there.
I watch her videos so that I can feel completely and utterly inadequate when it comes to my EE and programming skills. 

[AZCAMERA REVIEWS]

Hello Everybody,

 I am a NEWBIE on this site and I started following this thread after watching some of Naomi Wu's videos. I don't want to rock the boat, but I heard mention in Naomi's videos of how Dale had kept her from participating in certain MAKER events and basically "Poisoning The Water" for her towards competing or participating in various MAKER events in other countries i.e. Thailand. That said, I do realize I don't really know both sides of the story in depth. I feel that Dales'  apology seems genuine. If Dale's apology was given in good faith, it should stand without any kind of backhanded retribution.

I have been a Union Shop Steward/arbitrator for many years and have always fought for the little guy. When I heard about Dale excluding Naomi, thoughts of bully's picking on weaker, different kids at school or on the bus came to mind. I even thought about possibly, he had an axe to grind because he made some sort of inappropriate advances or comments to her and she took the high road! That, of course, is only speculation on my part due to all the sexual misconduct that is going on now in the press. If it could happen to Matt Laur, Charlie Rose and NPR personnel, why not someone at a printed publication?  Getting back on track, I used to stick up for those kids that got picked on while I was in school. I would come to the rescue for the kids in the computer club, musical theater and the guys who were male cheerleaders.

Why do people pick on others? Usually, because they are different than the norm. Let's look at the person "Naomi"  as an individual. She dresses more pretentiously than possibly some may be comfortable with, her look expresses her own artistic individualism. Also, why do so many feel the need to attack her for her cosmetic choices? Again, it is her choice to look the way she does. Many great artists are criticized for their looks, for example in the music world David Bowie, Marilyn Manson and yes...even Elvis who was arrested many times for how he moved when he performed. I know possibly I may be dating myself by talking about the Beatles, but some thought they were SATANIC! Let's also look how through history civilizations have wanted to exterminate whole religious groups based on hate. This same type of cleansing mindset is going on in other countries right this very minute. Let's "LIVE & LET LIVE"! or as the late Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along"?

Here in the United States, every person is entitled to Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness. Naomi, lives in China and possibly some may feel she is not entitled to the same liberties that we are entitled to here in the United States. With that being said, with my contacts in the press and politics, I would be willing to take action on her behalf if she asks, to right any wrongs here on the US side with the ACLU, AFL-CIO or any other organization that helps oppressed individuals.

Although I have never met her or talked to her, she seems like a nice person. But hey, we can always be fooled by persona. Why not just let her do her own Cyber thing, in her own Cyberworld and not be so judgmental. Let her MAKE!

[NiHaoMike]

Many great artists are criticized for their looks...

She *is* arguably a great artist of modern times. She also doesn't consider herself a model for some reason.

Interesting trivia: She actually wanted to gain a little weight, but gave up because trying to do that is unhealthy!
https://pastebin.com/3B86VBZA
What she wrote also seems to apply to another one of my friends, a former IEEE model, who is even skinnier and to this day remains the skinniest person I have seen in real life.

I have met quite a few women in (software) engineering jobs and they all wear typical male engineer outfits. Probably in order not to stand out and be accepted as a engineer (and for some it still is an uphill battle every now and then). I guess if you are dressed as an engineer you are an engineer.

I know only one female engineer who tries to look like a guy, in fact met her just yesterday because she got called to help debug a problem at work. All the others I have seen just look like normal females. In fact, a lot of the time, it's hard to tell they're engineers from looks alone. That apparently is even more true for the attractive ones.

[tablatronix]

gotta love the backpedaling, would a man have had his credentials equally challenged , or same requirement of references.. hmm

[Buriedcode]

OK, I've read the first few pages of this thread... and I didn't know who Naomi Wu was (or Dale Dougherty for that matter) before reading it.  This of course means I come form a point of ignorance, but also means I just see two people involved in tech.

I am unsure why people call for his resignation after a tweet that was, what appeared to be a question that was a bit 'off' (offensive). Perhaps he simply handled it badly, and a person in such a position should of course know better.  But I don't understand how such matters can be blown completely out of proportion these days?  His apology looked carefully crafted, which can only make matters worse as people will see it as not a real apology - I suspect his apology would have been much more genuine if the issue hadn't been inflated, and he wasn't under the spotlight.

It is as if people are primed to jump on any kind of comment that can be seen as prejudice against race, gender, religion or anything.. and jump over themselves to condemn who they see as the 'aggressor' whilst fiercely defending the 'victim'.  And others are primed to go the other direction - to accuse people of being SJW and 'wet liberals'. This of course polarizes matters and makes it a much-talked about issue (I refuse to use the word trending).  Whilst it is true that tweets from famous folk can influence people, and her business seems to be based on internet fame, how did this ever become a 'thing' ?

I'm aware that I'm adding to it as a 'thing' by commenting... but it really does seem that it is third parties who are all too ready to cry sexism, or racism that actually make matters of equality worse, because anyone who questions it is seen as being against equality.  This just increases the perceived gap between SJW/the left, and the 'straight talking' right, even though very few are actually at these extremes.

I think it is a sign of my age, I'm out of the loop, and don't understand the implications for their careers (I'm assuming it must have damaged both their careers somehow). 

[Buriedcode]

Interesting trivia: She actually wanted to gain a little weight, but gave up because trying to do that is unhealthy!

Not sure if I misread your post, how is trying to gain weight when one is underweight 'unhealthy' ?  I mean it could be, some are just naturally slim, and trying to move away from that could cause problems, but.. making a sweeping statement like 'trying to gain weight is unhealthy' without context is really no different from saying that trying to lose weight is unhealthy.  Also, what has weight got to do with this?  Why does anyone's weight matter?  I'm sure engineers come in a range of shapes and sizes.

I know only one female engineer who tries to look like a guy, in fact met her just yesterday because she got called to help debug a problem at work. All the others I have seen just look like normal females. In fact, a lot of the time, it's hard to tell they're engineers from looks alone. That apparently is even more true for the attractive ones.

Ok, now I'm just picking on you.  I cannot stand people saying 'females' instead of women, girls, ladies etc..  It is as if one is narrating on a nature program, trying to avoid using tags like 'women' and replacing them with vague sterile species independent terms like 'female' or 'male' in an effort to seem unbiased or something.  I imagine this is because one simply doesn't want to offend (respectable) but that assumes that women find any other term offensive, when I'm sure most really don't care.

All the others I have seen just look like normal females.

Again, you can see why someone might read that and see it as sexist. It implies you have a specific idea of what a 'normal woman' looks like, or should look like.  I realise you are not intentionally trying to be offensive, and I am not accusing you of being sexist, I just thought you should be aware that it is that sort of language which tends to be used to perpetuate ideas about sexism by those who steadfastly believe its everywhere.  On the one hand, in certain circumstances things have gone too far in an effort to not offend anyone, with some being far too sensitive.. but on the other, one still needs to call people out on things.

[Cerebus]

I am unsure why people call for his resignation after a tweet that was, what appeared to be a question that was a bit 'off' (offensive).

In my case, because he is [supposed to be] a professional journalist. He checked his story with a reliable source (Bunny Huang) who said 'It's not true' and then went ahead and 'published' his story despite having had it denied by a reliable source, causing significant damage to the reputation of a person with less of a media platform than he has. Back when I was a tech journalist, behaviour like that would have got me fired by my publisher, not only for dragging their reputation into the mud along with mine, but for a serious breach of professional ethics. For me it's a basic issue in professional ethics and he fell not merely short, but culpably short, of the standards required.

Race, gender, big boobs, whatever, don't come into it - my opinion would be the same whatever the characteristics of the slighted person because Dale Dougherty knew, or should have known, better than to publish a deliberate falsehood, particularly where there was such an imbalance of power between him, well-known editor of Make magazine and, a Maker with a relatively small media platform.

[Buriedcode]

I see. I've searched the thread - perhaps not well enough, and I can't find an article where he makes such claims, just a tweet that says he is questioning who she really is  - which can mean any number of things, but I imagine is particularly damaging for those who make a living from youtube. Anyone got a link? I did find some particularly vitriolic stuff from reddit and a blog though, didn't see his name mentioned.  Every time I see a story about misogyny or harassment, I first think its over inflated, only to find some really quite nasty posts highlighting the problem.

The article:
http://www.newsweek.com/naomi-wu-sexy-cyborg-misogyny-silicon-valley-704372

Maker CEO Dale Dougherty has harassed Wu online for weeks, alleging that she's only a model who serves as the face of engineering projects completed by a team of men.

I cannot find his harrassing articles, tweets, posts, only references to the controversy - have they been deleted?

Also, I'm afraid I don't have much faith in tech journalists anymore, after many articles on crowd-funding projects that are clearly bogus, as well as lack of fact checking, or blatant misunderstanding with regard to basic principles.  I say 'anymore' not because they've all of a sudden been dumbed down, just that 'technology' is much more popular subject these days, and therefore there are many more articles written about it by those less than qualified who are more willing to believe hype rather than actually think for themselves or do any kind of research.  I'm excluding those who work for Huffingtonpost, and popular UK papers (daily fail) here as those would just drag it down even further.

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in.  As Trump and many celebrities have shown repeatedly - best get your tweets vetted by someone you trust before you actually send it out there.   I imagine if he added question marks to the tweet the reaction would have been a bit muted.  So from what I've seen (again, I am probably missing a lot here) I'm on the side of idiocy rather than malice, and he handled the whole situation poorly. 

[FrankBuss]

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in.  As Trump and many celebrities have shown repeatedly - best get your tweets vetted by someone you trust before you actually send it out there.   I imagine if he added question marks to the tweet the reaction would have been a bit muted.  So from what I've seen (again, I am probably missing a lot here) I'm on the side of idiocy rather than malice, and he handled the whole situation poorly.

Dale didn't explain how he came to the conclusion, but as you can read in Bunnie's blog, a known trustworthy source, he contacted Bunnie on November 2nd and got the answer that she is real. Then he nevertheless tweeted on November 5th the tweet you can see in my screenshot on the first page. And yes, Dale deleted this tweet and other tweets meanwhile. I would say this was not idiocy, but malicious.

[EEVblog]

Maker CEO Dale Dougherty has harassed Wu online for weeks, alleging that she's only a model who serves as the face of engineering projects completed by a team of men.

I cannot find his harrassing articles, tweets, posts, only references to the controversy - have they been deleted?

Yes he deleted them all, standard arse covering procedure when SHTF.

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in. 

It was a very deliberate malicious act on his part in this case.

[EEVblog]

I am a NEWBIE on this site and I started following this thread after watching some of Naomi Wu's videos. I don't want to rock the boat, but I heard mention in Naomi's videos of how Dale had kept her from participating in certain MAKER events and basically "Poisoning The Water" for her towards competing or participating in various MAKER events in other countries i.e. Thailand. That said, I do realize I don't really know both sides of the story in depth.

There are indeed two issues here. One is the malicious claim made by Dale (now retracted), and the other is him supposedly keeping her from being invited to Maker events (I have not looked into this).
The later one he actually has every right to do if he so chooses. No one is "owed a platform" as a guest speaker, market stall holder, or whatever it is at any privately run event. The organisers can invite or not invite anyone they chose and the market will vote with their feet whether they want to attend and support that event in response.

[NiHaoMike]

Not sure if I misread your post, how is trying to gain weight when one is underweight 'unhealthy' ?  I mean it could be, some are just naturally slim, and trying to move away from that could cause problems, but.. making a sweeping statement like 'trying to gain weight is unhealthy' without context is really no different from saying that trying to lose weight is unhealthy.  Also, what has weight got to do with this?  Why does anyone's weight matter?  I'm sure engineers come in a range of shapes and sizes.

In her specific case, trying to gain weight is unhealthy. We need to have a side by side thermal image of her with a "normal" weight person to confirm the theory that the excess energy is being converted to heat. (Thermodynamics says it must be, but real evidence is undeniable.) And maybe even get DNA samples of many "natrually skinny" people as well as "normal" people in order to try to get an understanding exactly where in the DNA that happens.

At least in the US, more engineers seem to be overweight rather than underweight or even "normal" weight. That's quite a big problem.

Ok, now I'm just picking on you.  I cannot stand people saying 'females' instead of women, girls, ladies etc..  It is as if one is narrating on a nature program, trying to avoid using tags like 'women' and replacing them with vague sterile species independent terms like 'female' or 'male' in an effort to seem unbiased or something.  I imagine this is because one simply doesn't want to offend (respectable) but that assumes that women find any other term offensive, when I'm sure most really don't care.

Again, you can see why someone might read that and see it as sexist. It implies you have a specific idea of what a 'normal woman' looks like, or should look like.  I realise you are not intentionally trying to be offensive, and I am not accusing you of being sexist, I just thought you should be aware that it is that sort of language which tends to be used to perpetuate ideas about sexism by those who steadfastly believe its everywhere.  On the one hand, in certain circumstances things have gone too far in an effort to not offend anyone, with some being far too sensitive.. but on the other, one still needs to call people out on things.

The term "female" is a broader category that includes the two subcategories "girl" and "woman", of which not everyone seems to agree on where to divide the line. Two engineers that most people would define, by age, as women - Micah Elizabeth Scott and MsMadLemon - have referred to themselves as "girls".

[aargee]

Oh look, a National Enquirer thread.

[BBBbbb]

In her specific case, trying to gain weight is unhealthy. We need to have a side by side thermal image of her with a "normal" weight person to confirm the theory that the excess energy is being converted to heat. (Thermodynamics says it must be, but real evidence is undeniable.) And maybe even get DNA samples of many "natrually skinny" people as well as "normal" people in order to try to get an understanding exactly where in the DNA that happens.

Wut?

No really, what did you (try to) say?  I have trouble understanding it.
Unless you try to give some recognized arguments (not bro science) to what you tried to say here I have to call this BS.


Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

[NiHaoMike]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

[nctnico]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

I'm not sure it is such a rare phenomenon. Google 'brown fat' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue . BTW I know several people who can just eat anything and stay skinny (no, I'm not one of them). Another explaination is that the food isn't fully processed and leaves the body as-is.

Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

That is easely mitigated by requesting the participants of an event to adhere to a dress code.

[NiHaoMike]

If it was that common, obesity wouldn't be an epidemic. It probably is pretty common with Asians, easily explaining why 4 out of 5 of the people I know who are like that are Asians and why Asians tend to be skinny in general.

Naomi has "toned down" her appearance to fit into events where her usual level of "showing off" is not welcome. It is true, however, that such limits make it harder for her to distinguish herself from models like Joanne Chiang who have always been at that level.
https://imgur.com/a/X85wY

[BBBbbb]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

I'm not sure it is such a rare phenomenon. Google 'brown fat' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue . BTW I know several people who can just eat anything and stay skinny (no, I'm not one of them). Another explaination is that the food isn't fully processed and leaves the body as-is.

Your giving superpowers to brown fat, effects/role of the brown fat is far far slower and smaller than the rest of the metabolic processes in your body. Also its amount is limited compared to the "white" one.
And no, unless you have one of several serious conditions (endangering your overall health) you cannot eat anything and stay skinny. It comes down to people's subjective view of "eating anything", and sometimes simply disregarding the activity level of those people. Even with an above average activity of your thyroid gland you could easily eat more than you burn, and get fet. (e.g. people  misusing T3/T4 in high doses with out intended results)

Thermal camera? You must be joking? We aren't a heat sink on an LDO, variation in temperature of just a few degrees indicates a problem. And don't forget we do have thermal regulation, except the Reptilians among us.

Please link any reputable source (article or a study in the relevant field) for such claims if you hold them to be true.

Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

That is easely mitigated by requesting the participants of an event to adhere to a dress code.

You could get other participants offended and attract negative comments, and it would not be fair even to Naomi to ask her to change her approach.
Most importantly, it still wouldn't change the fact that your talking about two business models that don't get along nicely. (Considering that MAKE has the previously mentioned busines model)

[NiHaoMike]

And no, unless you have one of several serious conditions (endangering your overall health) you cannot eat anything and stay skinny. It comes down to people's subjective view of "eating anything", and sometimes simply disregarding the activity level of those people. Even with an above average activity of your thyroid gland you could easily eat more than you burn, and get fet. (e.g. people  misusing T3/T4 in high doses with out intended results)

Thermal camera? You must be joking? We aren't a heat sink on an LDO, variation in temperature of just a few degrees indicates a problem. And don't forget we do have thermal regulation, except the Reptilians among us.

Please link any reputable source (article or a study in the relevant field) for such claims if you hold them to be true.

All 5 of the "eat a lot and stay skinny" people I know seem to be very healthy, even the former IEEE model who is even skinnier than Naomi.

Although the "core" temperature is quite tightly controlled, the surface temperature can vary a lot and that's what the thermal camera detects. (Indeed, varying the effective "core to surface" thermal resistance is one of the mechanisms used to keep the temperature constant.)

[Bud]

What do you mean by iEEE model? Never heard of such term.

[NiHaoMike]

"IEEE model" simply refers to the models (who are also engineers) whose purpose is to "advertise" the IEEE events in college. It's apparently a Texas thing since apart from Texas A&M (the university I went to), I have only heard of it being done at University of Texas. What they do is pretty simple - stand outside the room for a few minutes before the event begins, then go onto the stage, introduce the guest speaker(s), and sometimes ask questions relating to the topic of the event.

As for how they dress for such events, pretty much like Joanne Chiang - showing off their beauty in a way that would be acceptable in most workplaces.

[Bud]

models (who are also engineers) whose purpose is to "advertise" the IEEE events in college.

 

[NiHaoMike]

At many engineering colleges in the US, the IEEE hosts events intended to allow students to learn from the "real world" side of engineering. At Texas A&M, the events apparently needed models to make them more popular. The models aren't just models - they're attractive looking engineers who help host IEEE events as a way to do social networking. They actually enjoy talking about engineering and are very knowledgeable. A little bit like the interactive Scanlime live streams but in real life.

If there's actually a demand for art+engineering TV that is a bit less "show off" than SexyCyborg, that would be a great niche for Joanne Tech Lover and/or CaitlinV3 to expand into.

[WastelandTek]

...
For me this thread is closed.

good riddance

[Galenbo]

I look at her as being an actor, like the front "men" of Milli Vanilli were.
They did that very good, very successful.

But on the society side, I don't think it's a good thing.
It could make women, who previously wanted to go into science/electronics, think they have to comply to that kind of looks and image.

[NiHaoMike]

I look at her as being an actor, like the front "men" of Milli Vanilli were.
They did that very good, very successful.

But on the society side, I don't think it's a good thing.
It could make women, who previously wanted to go into science/electronics, think they have to comply to that kind of looks and image.

More conservative women in engineering like Rinoa Super-Genius and Micah Elizabeth Scott do well to balance it out.

[Marco]

Well, film is a visual medium, that is trying to gain the eyeballs of visually oriented humans.

As is youtube. Objectification is just an inherent side effect of capitalism, as long as we're chasing money we will do a lot of distasteful things.

Whether it's using sex appeal, or destroying our bodies in physical labour. Sure it's a shame young girls might feel pressured to follow the same distasteful path, but no more of a shame than boys feeling pressured into back breaking labour. From a capitalist point of view our bodies are objects, showing some T&A is low on the totem pole of how our bodies get abused.

[NiHaoMike]

Whether it's using sex appeal, or destroying our bodies in physical labour. Sure it's a shame young girls might feel pressured to follow the same distasteful path, but no more of a shame than boys feeling pressured into back breaking labour. From a capitalist point of view our bodies are objects, showing some T&A is low on the totem pole of how our bodies get abused.

In the US, excessively demanding labor is not commonly desired as it tends to pay relatively little. (I suppose it depends on your definition of "excessively demanding"...) On that note, some might object to how Rinoa Super-Genius insists on staying very modest while working in the yard on a hot summer day.

Those who object to Naomi showing off too much are really going to have a time with the services that allow college girls to get nude in front of a camera to collect Bitcoin. I think those services have largely gone away ever since Bitcoin actually became worth something, not sure as I never really looked. Even though I have never viewed content from such a service, I have a biased view in favor of them because one of my friends used one to help pay for college.

Meanwhile, neither Micah Elizabeth Scott nor Joanne Chiang get very many complaints about the way they look on video. Maybe the middle ground really is the most sensible approach...

[Marco]

In the US, excessively demanding labor is not commonly desired as it tends to pay relatively little.

You work with what you have got, some have brains, some have a body which can be run into the ground, some have a body which can be pumped full of silicone.

[NiHaoMike]

You work with what you have got, some have brains, some have a body which can be run into the ground, some have a body which can be pumped full of silicone.

When someone decides to save some money going the DIY route (as I often do, I admit), there's more criticism that it's one less job for those poor workers to do than praise that a poor worker didn't have to tire himself out doing it. You should see how angry the HVAC techs get when a DIYer asks for help, as if they really enjoy doing the work!

On that note, one of my friends once did HVAC service work for 2 years before becoming a HVAC engineer in order to better understand the real world of HVAC. She had a surprisingly easy time selling preventative maintenance. (Looks apparently matter there!) It's kind of sad once she moved on that her good looks will mostly not be seen by the end user of the equipment she works on, but gaining knowledge - namely designing for serviceability - was the primary goal. (She's somewhere between "Micah Elizabeth Scott" and "Joanne Chiang" in terms of "showing off" - basically right in the middle of the scale. In physical ability, she's kind of like Rinoa Super-Genius.)

[BroMarduk]

Well, it looks like there has been some peace made...

https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/01/08/naomi-wu-on-the-cover-of-make-magazine-realsexycyborg-make/

[FrankBuss]

Well, it looks like there has been some peace made...

https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/01/08/naomi-wu-on-the-cover-of-make-magazine-realsexycyborg-make/

I didn't know that you can certify a project as open source hardware. Looks like it is really popular, already about 100 registered projects 

http://certificate.oshwa.org/certification-directory/

So if I want to use the open source hardware logo, do I have to certify my project? I'm a bit worried about it, because they list fines up to $1000 per month, if something is wrong.