Author Topic: Damned tiny components, old eyes.  (Read 4295 times)

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Offline ErikTheNorwegianTopic starter

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Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« on: September 10, 2021, 06:00:45 am »
Damned tiny components, old eyes wrong glasses

Back, after hiatus of nearly 10 years away from the lab, electronics, many things in the trade is become fuzzy and unclear.
Things are getting smaller, text on components, traces on boards, everything is down in size.

So what`s the best approach for getting a clear picture?
A microsocope, that is ok, whats the best for old eyes?
I see Dave use a Tigano, is that the way to go?
Large lenses, are they out?
I got progressive glasses, but even they are a struggle to use on near field. What are the experience from others regarding glasses?

There must be others with the same problems and maybe a solution.

Erik
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2021, 06:35:38 am »
Try a desk magnifier.
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2021, 06:43:24 am »
A binocular optical microscope was the way out of my own misery. If you have the space, don't bother looking at those USB microscopes. They are fine for inspection but lack the 3D vision you need for soldering small components.

Mine is an Amscope, bought it with a 0.5x Barlow lens. Magnification is now up to 45x which is plenty, and the Barlow gives a nice working distance.
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Online jpanhalt

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2021, 09:30:39 am »
Old eyes generally means loss of accommodation; although, there are other issues too.  I am about 80 y.o.

For electronics, I use an OptiVisor that has an additional loupe for even higher magnification, like the one shown here: https://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/visors-magnifiers/optiloupe-sku255001600-25612-13786.aspx?cm_mmc=PPC-_-Itwine-_-Google-_-255-001-600&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj7T92oj08gIVaHNvBB0sEgFrEAQYAiABEgJ4LfD_BwE  I rarely need the loupe.  It is mostly just in the way.

The lenses are glass and have no scratches after more than 20 years.  It's been so long I don't remember the magnification.  I think it is about 2X.

My normal reading glasses are +2 diopter (about 1.5X).  I use 1.75 diopter for most computer work.  One can wear your ordinary reading glasses with the optivisor.  That gives me more FOV and depth than my binocular microscope.

I use the microscope mostly for inspection (solder bridges, clean up) and occasional photography (it needs a reducing lens).  The oculars are WF so they work with glasses as well as expected, but I like the fact that the wearable head band moves with me.  I have some very small parts this Fall to assemble and may use the scope for them, but probably not.
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2021, 10:14:55 am »
1. - State of the art is the Mantis type of microscopes, they let you watch the inspected item like looking at a monitor (but it's all optical, nothing electronic).  One can sit normally and see "around" the object by simply tilting it's head, without tilting the inspected object.  Mantis are also used by dentist technicians, to prepare prosthetic tooth.  The microscope is great in quality, perfect for electronics, but it is also bulky and very expensive.

2. - Next to that are the Binocular Inspection Microscopes (trinocular simulfocal if you want to film, too, while working).  These looks like "normal" lab microscopes, but there is a decent distance between the object and the lens, enough to work with a soldering iron.  Also full optical, no electronics, excellent 3D vision, but hard to use because you need to look exactly through the eyepieces, hard for backbone too when working for long under microscope.

3. - Then, there are monocular electronic microscopes, mostly a webcam+display.  No 3D perspective and most of them are laggy, the image lag behind your hands moves, making good mostly for inspection only but not for soldering or working live under the microscope.

4. - Goggles-like lens, sometimes used in jewellery, too, sometimes like a hat.  The image quality is not as good as from a stereo microscope, but easy to put on/off, and gives one complete freedom to move around the lab.

5. - Big desk magnifier glass (on an arm), image not very good and usually wiggling and oscillating most of the time.

6. - Small but powerful (3-5x magnification) hand magnifier glass, easy to use and very good image but needs an extra hand.





I've tried all of them except the Mantis microscope, and ended using a generic binocular inspection microscope for fine work, and one of those "hats with lens" for it's freedom to move and look everywhere.  That is when working, otherwise I use a hand magnifier glass.
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2021, 11:36:21 am »
I have vari focals, I presume they are similar or the same as progressive glasses.

I have an  "AmScope 7X-45X Simul-Focal Stereo microscope" with an LED light ring and I love it, I can use it with or without my glasses (but my vision might not be as bad as yours)

Originally I bought the much cheaper "Swift S41-20 Stereo Microscope" (AmScope do a similar, if not identical model) and while it was OK, it wasn't really good for someone with vision like mine, the difference between that one and the 7X-45X is like night and day. Can happily look through my 7x for hours.
 
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2021, 01:22:05 pm »
I use binocular microscope a head mounted magnifer and jewele loupe dending on the job in hand as well as wearing varifocal glassss.
Sometimes even 10x magnification is not highe enough as things have goten so small,fortunately I do not work on the very small stuff on a regular basis most is power electronics with nice big components.
 

Offline SpacedCowboy

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2021, 02:49:22 pm »
To be honest, these days I use assembly. All those BGA chips and 0201 caps aren't worth the hassle IMHO. It's more expensive, sure, and there are commensurate delays, but having crappy eyesight myself, the amount of time it would take me to do all the soldering, then run through it again because something was wrong. Sometimes it was a case of lather, rinse, repeat.

Now, I spend a lot more time on the design, send it off for manufacture in China, wait a month or so and in the meantime start something else. When it comes back, it's *far* more likely to be working and ready to go...
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegianTopic starter

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2021, 02:56:00 pm »
I wishe David could make a video telling about the different tools he have to help with seeing detail of electronics.. he must have all the different microscopes , cameras etc there. Make a for against video about the different tools and who og for what they are best in use.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2021, 03:02:56 pm »
If cost isn't an issue then nothing beats a Mantis - the slightly 3D view, decent distance and zero-latency of a true optical system, and lack of eyepieces makes working very comfortable for long periods
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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2021, 07:37:43 pm »
A bi/trinocular microsope plus something like an Eschenback Mobilux 7x 28D 60 do everything I need. The little hand magnifier is great for quickly looking at the markings on a small package.

The USB or Andonstar type microscopes are OK for inspection, but you can't easily solder with them.
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Offline jct

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2021, 09:01:57 am »
Binocular Microscope (with either 0.75x or 0.5x Barlow Lens) and for really poor eyesight get the best ring-light you can afford.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2021, 05:59:06 pm »
A desktop magnifier helps a lot but a binocular microscope like a dissecting microscope is better for finer work.

OptiVISOR style head magnifiers are suppose to be very good but I have never used one.
 

Offline rfclown

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2021, 09:52:07 pm »
I have to have magnification or I can't work. I'll be 60 next month. I do all soldering under a microscope: stereo zoom. I doesn't matter if it's a 1206 or a 0201, I use a scope for any of it. At home I have Bausch & Lomb stereo zoom 4s. They can be had for <$200 on eBay and are nice scopes. At work we have a mix of brands, but all stereo zoom.  I use ring flourescent lights which were fairly inexpensive. For some reason I seem to like the flourescent better than the few LED lights I've tried.

For even simple stuff like probing boards I need to use magnification. I use a cheap visor similar to the one in the attachment. I don't like the lighted ones (don't want the light, and don't want the extra weight). I have one at home and one at work. I really need these things. The lenses have a flip down to double the lens and increase magnification, and a small loop on one side to step it up more. I use all these features. There are tons of different models around now, but I got mine about 12 years ago for $5 and couldn't do without them. Even for working with big stuff, like working on the car, I'll use them.

Someone suggested a Mantis microscope. You'll want to try one of these before buying it. It really is different. I worked at one company that had these, and some people loved them. I really didn't like them and brought in one of my Bausch & Lombs.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2021, 10:43:41 pm »

+1 for OptiVisor

I use them for everything, no need for any other kind of magnifier.  Compact, stows away when not used, no electronics, nothing not to like!

 

Offline YetAnotherTechie

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2021, 11:47:33 pm »
Is an optivisor that much different from x2 or x3 reading glasses?
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2021, 01:57:58 am »
I use headband magnifying visors all the time. In fact I'm wearing one right now. Cheap and practical. Goes anywhere.
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegianTopic starter

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2021, 03:17:09 am »
A lot of advices.. and a lot of options!   :)

Regarding OptiVisor, there are many different types coming up when searching.
OptiVISOR, spelld like this is the brand. Others are copies.
So go for the original brand name , or are there copies that are equally good? I rule out China copies. Bought a set years ago, but it was a plastic thing that was horrible to have on.

I got a amscope, but never got any good use of it. Always right eye that comes out blurry. Switched the lenses,  and still right eye blurry. Always in the end of the range when it come to adjust it clear. It's a strange thing, using på right eye on the left side of the scope, it's clear with both lenses!  Must be a fault in the Amscope itself.
If I get down to my lab , I will take some photos.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 03:21:12 am by ErikTheNorwegian »
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Offline rfclown

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2021, 04:15:26 am »
Is an optivisor that much different from x2 or x3 reading glasses?

I've had my optivisors for about 12 years now. I have bifocal glasses, but don't like the small field of view in my particular lenses. About 2 years ago I bought some cheap reading glasses (3 pairs for $5). I use the reading glasses all the time now for reading. For me they haven't been a substitute for the optivisors; maybe due to the fact that I can change the magnification of the optivisors. Then again I haven't tried using higher magnification reading glasses for the things I use the optivisors for. I only picked ones that I liked for reading common text. If you haven't tried the optivisors, try a cheap pair. I discovered them when I was doing contract work for a luthier. I had brought in my microscope to do work that I really didn't need that much magnification to do (but that's what I did). He gave me a pair of optivisors to try, and I was sold. His pair had high quality optics. I Googled and bought a cheap $5 one that I've been happy with ever since. Soon bought a second pair so I'd have one at home and one at work. For my eyes they are essential.
 
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2021, 07:11:07 am »
Is an optivisor that much different from x2 or x3 reading glasses?

Not really IMHO, I find cheap reading glasses from the drugstore much more comfortable than a visor. It's heavy and it's only advantage is that you can flip up the lenses if you don't need them, but then again, I'm not able to work without any magnification. Just for soldering, reading glasses are not enough any more, so I use a microscope. I do own a visor, but I haven't used it since I discovered that reading glasses work better for me.
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2021, 08:20:23 am »
The visor gives you a little larger working distance compared to reading glasses. So you are less likely to hit your nose with the soldering iron.
Form the optics they are similar, just a singel manifying lense at a fixed distance to the eye.

The reading glasses are often more compftable to wear. For really small things it needs the strong ones, like +3 dp, not the more common weak ones.
It dends on the eyes if this is enough - those who are really short sighted get away with just changing from the normal glasses to safty glasses.
The visors may be available with stronger lenses and can be combined with the normal glasses.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2021, 09:09:19 am »
It depends on the eyes if this is enough - those who are really short sighted get away with just changing from the normal glasses to safety glasses.

For me, taking off my glasses is like switching to macro mode.  But then I have to keep track of my glasses so using a magnifier and leaving my glasses on is often more convenient.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2021, 09:29:53 am »

I got a amscope, but never got any good use of it. Always right eye that comes out blurry. Switched the lenses,  and still right eye blurry. Always in the end of the range when it come to adjust it clear. It's a strange thing, using på right eye on the left side of the scope, it's clear with both lenses!  Must be a fault in the Amscope itself.
If I get down to my lab , I will take some photos.

Assuming you have adjusted the adjustable ocular for refractive differences, I suggest  you get an eye examination.  Cataracts, glaucoma, dry eye, and age-related macular degeneration (AMD) are common causes for blurred vision that can occur in one eye.  Cataracts can be easily treated, as can glaucoma and dry eye.  Whether AMD is treatable depends on the type.  This is not the place to try to diagnose, which is why an examination is the best option.

I suspect the reason a difference is noted only when near focus for the other eye is that when it is blurred in both eyes a difference in blurriness is harder to detect than when one is clear.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Damned tiny components, old eyes.
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2021, 07:41:52 pm »
Is an optivisor that much different from x2 or x3 reading glasses?

Yes, it is, because you can wear normal glasses underneath them - so you still get corrections for each individual eye, and correction of astigmatism etc. (if you have that condition).

Furthermore, the "visor" part acts to block out light from above, which increases contrast and clarity of what you are looking at.  Try it!

My Optivisors are from the 1960's,  the modern ones look exactly the same.  Can't complain about the durability, lol!   :)
 


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